What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

Either the (unpublished) UK/AZ contract is airtight and the EU/AZ one is a sieve or else there's something fishy going on.

Yes and the UK gave a greater amount of money and confirmed it's order 3 months earlier. So there are potentially different contracts.

Also, when similar production issues happened with the UK supply nobody threatened legal action.

And the UK 'spread betting' on vaccination research had more money and a greater reach.

And all sorts of other financial issues that do actually make a difference to how quickly a number if vaccines were developed, you know, like dickering over the price knowing it is being sold at cost and any profit will go towards vaccines for poorer countries.

It really isn't a political issue. It's a matter of unprecedented scientific achievement and wholly foreseeable manufacturing issues.

All the EU had to do was pause, acknowledge the reality of new manufacturing issues and reassure everyone that supply would catch up as soon as possible, but would always be a bit lumpy. You know, just as the UK did when it hits the same problem.

That and maybe remember which countries scientific and manufacturing teams agreed instantly to produce the a viable vaccine at cost!!! Maybe say thanks before threatening with all sorts of legal actions.

@SummerBody1 it's under the section "Exporting medicines meant for markets abroad", about half way down the linked page, and reads:

You can continue to export medicines on the restricted medicines list that are manufactured and intended for markets abroad. The restrictions do not apply.

This includes medicines in packaging and labelled for markets abroad but may also include medicines in UK packaging with UK labelling if they were manufactured and intended for other markets and the supply has been part of the forecast of the marketing authorisation holder.

The UK one could be identical to the EU one. The lack of fuss over the initial supply suggests it may have been very similar.

AZ have said plainly, they are serving each order as they get it. That seems to be the crux of the matter.

We'd need a Belgian contract specialist to tell us if there is something wrong with AZs stance. The only one I am aware of thinks the EU don't have a legal case to make. Though I suspect there will be as many opinions as their are Belgian experts 😁

@Motorina
I read that as 'if the customer bought x units last year, and was forecast to purchase x units this year, they may continue to have x units - but not more'.
So when the epidemic occured, and different drugs were thrown at it, with different levels of success, we are banning the sale of drugs (listed) likely to see increased orders. That's putting UK first.

@SummerBody1 Liz Truss discussed the issue of the export restrictions on drugs during her interview with Andrew Marr this morning. She confirmed that there is no ban for drugs that were produced for the overseas market. The ban relates to drugs intended for use in the U.K. by the NHS. It was out in place to stop price gouging.

*put

One of the big differences between English law and European law is that English law is an adversarial, winner takes all kind of system. Whereas European countries tend to have more collaborative, find the middle ground kind of system.

Which only makes it more odd that the EU chose not to do as the contract stated and discuss options, try to resolve any issues.

And now France and Germany are threatening legal action

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/31/france-germany-threaten-covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-shortageeu-uk

[quote Baileysforchristmas]And now France and Germany are threatening legal action

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/31/france-germany-threaten-covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-shortageeu-uk[/quote]
Legal action against AZ if they can show they believe they can prove that AZ has broken the contract. Who wouldn't sue for that?

@IcedPurple

Romania Poland etc worked very hard to get accepted into the EU. They clearly saw the benefits.

And I can clearly see the benefits for Romania and Poland too. Massive investment in their infrastructure and the opportunity for their people to work in countries where the average salary is 4 or 5 times what they could earn at home. There is an obvious reason why there are, or were, a million Poles in Britain and similar numbers in other Western European countries, but hardly any Brits or Germans living in Poland.

The benefits aren't so obvious for wealthier countries though. That's why Switzerland, Iceland and Norway will never join the EU, even if they have other associations with it.

This.

Eu is a worthwhile organisation for some countries. It's also very controlled by some other countries in it.

I've lived and worked in Spain and IME opinion of being in EU was 50/50 (so much like UK) and most of those I knew who wanted in were ex pats. My Spanish friends tended to want out.

Interesting interview in Andrew Marr about the EU and vaccines this morning.

But it's true what people said about press. But you also have to look at bias about why it was in uk press more. Why were EU having interviews with uk press?

It's the same as mentioned above that when uk does questionable things it's reported more within EU.

And it will be now since we've left. And I imagine will be for next year or even years to come.

user it's odd because of the contract itself. One section states clearly... if shit happens both sides will discuss options before deciding to take legal action because, you know, this is a global pandemic!

6.2 I think

@HilaryThorpe

I think that the venture capitalistsworking for the government in the UK did well in investing in and securing the vaccines. I think the EU has been too slow to get its act together on vaccine procurement. I think the jingoism, gloating and smugness demonstrated by the UK media and some individuals on here makes me despair of humanity.

This strikes me. I came off MN on Friday due to the xenophobic rhetoric on here. We are all suffering hugely now but I had hoped people’s humanity might remain - clearly that was too much to hope for. The gloating over people in need being denied a vaccine has shocked and saddened me.

@OhWhyNot

Have friends in Germany, Italy and France

German friends concerned they will once again be financing the countries that were already in trouble before covid hit

France similar

Italy resentful that there wasn’t the support form the EU

But that’s just those I’m in contact with

There has always been discontent within the EU even among those that believe it’s better to be within the EU than not, during difficult times this resentment will grow, I have always thought other countries shall follow I think with the issues that covid brings and the very serious mistake the EU had made over vaccinations this is more likely

I voted to remain but was not surprised by the EU’s actions more disappointed.

I can completely understand why your German friend would be concerned that Germany will have to back roll the poorer countries.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

user it's odd because of the contract itself. One section states clearly... if shit happens both sides will discuss options before deciding to take legal action because, you know, this is a global pandemic!

6.2 I think

Fair enough. But it appears that there have been talks already. Germany usually isn't acting emotionally in handling these circumstances, so wouldnt just threaten a lawsuit unless there were legitimate reasons. Anyways, a lawsuit might not be the worst idea, at least then we'll know the facts, and not just speculation

Please point me to the posts where a UK poster has revelled in the vaccine shortages that the EU is experiencing

That was in response to Anna's girl

There has been a lot of mutual misunderstanding, I suspect.

I think I said here somewhere, that it really doesn't matter what the contract is eventually found to mean in law. The initial EU reaction was aggressive to the point of political suicide!

For 12ish hours various EU and European voices vented their wrath and fears in a way that was entirely unwarranted. Diplomacy, political expediency took a day off.

It takes a lot to make me say this, I am an ex teacher, but on Friday the most mature voice we heard was The Goviot.

That so many EU and European leaders spoke directly to and about the UK without, if what European posters say is right, including their own home nations, is quite unnerving. What was the point, what did they want to achieve?

All the "Oops! Sorry A.16 was an error" can't erase the fact that it was done, considered appropriate, for even a fleeting hour or 12. ROI and NI deserve better than that! Such casual treatment cannot be dismissed with "Oh, she wasn't here when that was arranged, maybe she didn't know".

It's a weird and unusual time. And I don't think anyone expected the EU to be quite so undemocratic. There are many European countries, EU member states that will have seems something they don't like!

@CuriousaboutSamphire

There has been a lot of mutual misunderstanding, I suspect.

I think I said here somewhere, that it really doesn't matter what the contract is eventually found to mean in law. The initial EU reaction was aggressive to the point of political suicide!

For 12ish hours various EU and European voices vented their wrath and fears in a way that was entirely unwarranted. Diplomacy, political expediency took a day off.

It takes a lot to make me say this, I am an ex teacher, but on Friday the most mature voice we heard was The Goviot.

That so many EU and European leaders spoke directly to and about the UK without, if what European posters say is right, including their own home nations, is quite unnerving. What was the point, what did they want to achieve?

All the "Oops! Sorry A.16 was an error" can't erase the fact that it was done, considered appropriate, for even a fleeting hour or 12. ROI and NI deserve better than that! Such casual treatment cannot be dismissed with "Oh, she wasn't here when that was arranged, maybe she didn't know".

It's a weird and unusual time. And I don't think anyone expected the EU to be quite so undemocratic. There are many European countries, EU member states that will have seems something they don't like!

The initial EU reaction was aggressive to the point of political suicide!

Yes, the aggression was shocking, and actually quite frightening. I think this summing up of the situation from The Spectator is spot on: "Concerns about lack of supply across Europe prompted the EU Commission to consider how it might override Pfizer and AstraZeneca’s prior commitments and commandeer the output of their Belgian factories for the bloc’s own internal use."

Sorry, didn't mean to include the very long quote.

S'OK. I didn't mean to write all of it 😁

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

The UK have the majority of the AZ vaccine production because the EU AZ factory isn't working very well yet.

The EU have the Pfizer production despite it being a US company

The EU threatened to block the Pfizer vaccine exports not the AZ. They don't have any AZ to block that's the problem.

It would be a really dumb move in the end to block Pfizer exporting to other countries presumably including the US because their predictable response would be to move production out of the EU which would lose German jobs.

That's why they never actually did it just threatened it. It is very important to the EU that the U.K. don't look to have obtained a major advantage from Brexit on this or others may get the same idea. Hence the fuss. A smokescreen to divert attention.

To bring the Irish border into it was so far overstepping and provocative as to be shameful.

I hate the Tories. I hate Brexit but the EU are all shades of wrong over this. It is shameful and embarrassing and a gift to Brexiteers.

Yup, exactly this. Remainer here too.

Very interesting the previous comment about the news coverage within the EU being focussed on AZ's behaviour and nothing on the EU's threats.

@napody what threats? The EU are looking into keeping all Pfizer manufactured on EU for use vaccinating EU citizens. As U.K. have a much larger consignment of AZ vaccine to use. That’s sensible not a threat. They said in a draft statement they were going to invoke Article 16. A few hours later they apologised and said they were not. Again not a threat.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity I don’t think Gove helped. I was shocked to see him come out and publicly say essentially ‘we won’t let them take any of our vaccines’ if he wanted to actually help he should have said ‘the EU are not stealing our vaccines. This is a production dispute between AZ and EU over doses manufactured in U.K.’. That might actually have calmed the U.K. media down!

Belgian law tends to be quite pragmatic and would look closely at the intention of the contract. Slippery clauses would be frowned upon.