What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

[quote samanthawashington]@TableFlowerss

Personally I am happier in a flawed but on the whole democratic EU than a corrupt and greedy UK run by the most inept government in recent generations

The EU democratic? What are you smoking? To compare the UK elected government (ignore the pointless House of Lords) to the EUs mammoth unelected bureaucracy is laughable. What is democratic about the bigger wealthier countries like France and Germany strong arming the smaller countries?

[/quote]
The EU officials are elected. Not sure what you are on about, especialky with half your Parliament, the House of Lords being not elected at all.

[quote samanthawashington]@TableFlowerss

Personally I am happier in a flawed but on the whole democratic EU than a corrupt and greedy UK run by the most inept government in recent generations

The EU democratic? What are you smoking? To compare the UK elected government (ignore the pointless House of Lords) to the EUs mammoth unelected bureaucracy is laughable. What is democratic about the bigger wealthier countries like France and Germany strong arming the smaller countries?

[/quote]
You tagged me in in - but it was another poster that wrote that. My opinion is the same as yours and I replied with a similar response.

The EU officials are elected. Not sure what you are on about, especialky with half your Parliament, the House of Lords being not elected at all

And do the likes of Romania, Poland and other poorer countries have as much say as the wealthy ones? Because from what I’ve seen it’s Germany, Belgium, France that seem to hold the power. You never here the other ones mentioned.

@TableFlowerss

*The EU officials are elected. Not sure what you are on about, especialky with half your Parliament, the House of Lords being not elected at all*

And do the likes of Romania, Poland and other poorer countries have as much say as the wealthy ones? Because from what I’ve seen it’s Germany, Belgium, France that seem to hold the power. You never here the other ones mentioned.

They actually have more say on a per capita basis.

The EU Parliament seat distribution takes into account the population of member states and follows the principle of degressive proportionality. That means that countries that are smaller in terms of population should have fewer MEPs than bigger countries. At the same time, MEPs from larger countries should represent more people than MEPs from smaller countries. In this way, smaller countries have a relatively stronger presence in the EU Parliament than do MPs from less populated parts of the UK

*MPs in U.K. Parliament

@SummerBody1

BTW Blocking export of medicine is pretty routine in an epidemic. India did it with paracetamol. UK has about 170 items blocked.

Trump tried to block face masks being sent to Canada, but it was pointed out that the raw material (paper) was imported from Canada - I forget how that worked out.

I just wanted to clarify this, because it's a bit more complex than that.

The UK block is on drugs on the restricted list which were intended for the UK market being resold outwith the UK. It explicitly does not prevent the export of drugs manufactured with the intent of them being sold overseas.

I mention this because I've seen in a couple of places this being used as a justification for the EU to completely block the export of any covid vaccines, whether or not their intended market was within the EU. It's not a fair comparison, because the UK restrictions do not apply if the doses were manufactured for a non-UK market.

Full details of the regulations at www.gov.uk/guidance/parallel-export-and-hoarding-of-restricted-medicines

@TableFlowerss Romania Poland etc worked very hard to get accepted into the EU. They clearly saw the benefits. The U.K. is and has always been anti-eu/Europe - right back to when it was being made a skit of on yes minister ions ago. So many people in the U.K. can’t seem to understand others see large benefits of being in the EU.

@SkiingIsHeaven

It's my understanding of the whole EU, Ireland, vaccine thing. Please correct me, add something if I’ve missed it but you have to use the analogy I’m using to help my simple mind-

New pizza restaurant opens-

🍕- Who wants 🍕?

🇬🇧- Yep, please, pepperoni shed loads of it!!

🍕- Ok, 🇪🇺, while I’m doing theirs, want anything?

🇪🇺- Yes let us just..... hold! What we having?

🇫🇷-Pepperoni
🇩🇪- Plain cheese
🇬🇷- Anchovies
🇮🇹- mushroom
🇮🇩- pineapple

🇫🇷🇩🇪🇬🇷🇮🇹- Who the f invited Poland? We are not having pineapple you heathens!!

🍕- Well while you decide we’ll crack on with the UK order 👍.

(Some hours later)

🇪🇺- We too shall have pepperoni!

🍕- Great just dealing with the UK start yours ASAP! All ovens fired and were cracking on.

🇪🇺- We have ordered!! You shall deliver to us NOW!

🍕- Well, you can have a few but we really do have an obligation to get the 🇬🇧 theirs.

🇪🇺- Fine, then we shall block the garden path to the 🇬🇧. No more pizza for them until we get ours!!!!

🇫🇷- Who left the side gate open?! 🇮🇪 ffs why haven’t you shut your gate?

🇮🇪- You said we could keep it open so we can still go and see next door and take them stuff. You said it was a good thing.

🇪🇺- We said that to try and strong arm the UK into not leaving!!

🇮🇪- But........

🇪🇺- (Mutes 🇮🇪) Its ok we have the key just lock it anyway.

Sinn Fein- I focken dare yous to touch our gate!!!!

🇪🇺- We’ve talked to the 🇬🇧 and decided NOT to lock the gate. We shall wait for our 🍕 and see if there is a calm rational way to speed up production.

😂 - great analogy!

[quote MrsOliviaGrant]@TableFlowerss Romania Poland etc worked very hard to get accepted into the EU. They clearly saw the benefits. The U.K. is and has always been anti-eu/Europe - right back to when it was being made a skit of on yes minister ions ago. So many people in the U.K. can’t seem to understand others see large benefits of being in the EU.[/quote]
Oh I can understand the likes of Poland and Romania wanting to be part of Europe. I can imagine it benefits them more than it hinders them in every way possible.

I can understand why other less wealthy countries are jumping at the bit to be part of it. They need Europe more than Europe needs them in economic terms. It will be good for economy or certainly better than if they had to go it alone.

The UK is a different ball game altogether though. It’s obviously a much more wealthy country and with that wealth, comes more options and choices.

One of the arguments for leaving the EU, is that UK contributed more financially than what it gained back. That will be some loss to the EU.

@SkiingIsHeaven your analogy makes no sense.

@TableFlowerss That will be some loss to the EU.

Again this is a U.K. view. The EU will be fine. It’s sad to lose the U.K. from a solidarity perspective however. Obviously loss of funds isn’t ideal but it will have to be made up by other member states.

And yes I agree it’s better for Poland Romania etc to be in the EU than out of it.

[quote MrsOliviaGrant]@SkiingIsHeaven your analogy makes no sense.[/quote]
Why? Which bit? All of it? You haven't said, so we can only guess.

Romania Poland etc worked very hard to get accepted into the EU. They clearly saw the benefits.

And I can clearly see the benefits for Romania and Poland too. Massive investment in their infrastructure and the opportunity for their people to work in countries where the average salary is 4 or 5 times what they could earn at home. There is an obvious reason why there are, or were, a million Poles in Britain and similar numbers in other Western European countries, but hardly any Brits or Germans living in Poland.

The benefits aren't so obvious for wealthier countries though. That's why Switzerland, Iceland and Norway will never join the EU, even if they have other associations with it.

@IcedPurple

Romania Poland etc worked very hard to get accepted into the EU. They clearly saw the benefits.

And I can clearly see the benefits for Romania and Poland too. Massive investment in their infrastructure and the opportunity for their people to work in countries where the average salary is 4 or 5 times what they could earn at home. There is an obvious reason why there are, or were, a million Poles in Britain and similar numbers in other Western European countries, but hardly any Brits or Germans living in Poland.

The benefits aren't so obvious for wealthier countries though. That's why Switzerland, Iceland and Norway will never join the EU, even if they have other associations with it.

This this this and this!!!

Have friends in Germany, Italy and France

German friends concerned they will once again be financing the countries that were already in trouble before covid hit

France similar

Italy resentful that there wasn’t the support form the EU

But that’s just those I’m in contact with

There has always been discontent within the EU even among those that believe it’s better to be within the EU than not, during difficult times this resentment will grow, I have always thought other countries shall follow I think with the issues that covid brings and the very serious mistake the EU had made over vaccinations this is more likely

I voted to remain but was not surprised by the EU’s actions more disappointed.

@knittingaddict well there is a pretty large omission after the EU say they want pepperoni too.

The pizza place says oh yes no problem we will get that to you on X date. We have 5 pizza places making pizza so it should be all good. The Eu says great here’s the money for my pizzas in advance and to help you cover costs of making them. Then pizza place then says later oh actually we can’t make them for X date. Our two pizza factories near you are not working properly. Then the EU says but you told us you had 5 pizza places. Oh yes we do have 5 pizza places but we’re only making yours on best efforts basis from the ones near you. Then EU says but that contract we signed said all factories including those in U.K. in section 5.4 and the pizza place says oh but that was best effort and the EU says but best effort of all pizza manufacturers and the pizza place says no best efforts from the ones near you. Then they consult their lawyers as if it is all factories and as there was no clause in the EU contract saying ‘subject to fulfilling U.K. order first’ then the shortfall should be split between the two. And if the U.K. contract says U.K. gets their first on a first come first serve basis then the EU were misled by not being told this clause in the U.K. contract affects their contract and production

So pretty much that’s why the analogy makes no sense.sort if it doesn’t suit your agenda of using a simple analogy so you can all say is hahaha stupid EU aren’t we great they are stealing our vaccines the EU is going to fall apart they’re so jealous of us hahaha

This is what Germany thinks of Ursula, it’s not the first time she’s messed up.

www.thelocal.de/20210130/germany-assures-worried-states-that-further-5-million-vaccine-doses-are-on-the-way

The pizza place says oh yes no problem we will get that to you on X date. We have 5 pizza places making pizza so it should be all good. The Eu says great here’s the money for my pizzas in advance and to help you cover costs of making them. Then pizza place then says later oh actually we can’t make them for X date.

As I understand it, "X date" is April 1st as the contract referred to end of Q1. So no deadline has been missed as of yet.

@IcedPurple yes but unless you’ve been asleep under a rock which I know you haven’t as you’ve been prolific on these threads (including this one eliciting EU views!) you will be away AZ have said they can’t deliver the agreed amount by X date. Can you point me toward where I said a deadline has been missed?

[quote MrsOliviaGrant]@IcedPurple yes but unless you’ve been asleep under a rock which I know you haven’t as you’ve been prolific on these threads (including this one eliciting EU views!) you will be away AZ have said they can’t deliver the agreed amount by X date. Can you point me toward where I said a deadline has been missed?[/quote]
Have AZ said definitively that they will not fulfil the order by April 1st?

@IcedPurple where have I alluded to that either way?

[quote MrsOliviaGrant]@IcedPurple where have I alluded to that either way?[/quote]
You've said that "Then pizza place then says later oh actually we can’t make them for X date."

Also, the contract refers to 'best efforts', so they were not making an iron-clad guarantee that the pizza would be delivered by 'X date'. The EU doesn't have a case.

Yes the pizza analogy fails because it ignores the fact that the EU helped the restaurant buy extra pizza ovens to ensure that they would be able to deliver 10 pizzas when they wanted to order them, and at the last minute before the pizzas were due to be delivered the pizzeria are telling them they can only have 3 and are not adequately explaining why.

I don’t know why so many people are ignoring the fact that the EU gave AZ a massive amount of money in advance to ensure production capacity would be there and are now pissed of that at the last minute AZ are saying they can only have 30%.

And why is it morally acceptable for the U.K. to insist on receiving the first 100m AZ vaccines produced in the U.K. but terrible when the EU suggests an export ban on the Pfizer vaccine until their vulnerable people are vaccinated?

@Motorina
The UK block is on drugs on the restricted list which were intended for the UK market being resold outwith the UK. It explicitly does not prevent the export of drugs manufactured with the intent of them being sold overseas

That is not how I read it. I've already read that page carefully. You use the word 'intended' but I don't see this in the legislation.
'On the market' seems to mean, 'marketable' - like an end product, as opposed to an ingredient.

Exporting UK licensed medicines that are unlicensed in the destination country
You cannot export medicines on the restricted medicines list that have been put on the market for UK patients, whether they are licensed or unlicensed in the destination country.

I am not in the industry, but this appears to be a ban. Otherwise, why write it at all.

@IcedPurple gosh I’m so sorry I didn’t use the exact wording of the AZ statement to the EU about shortages. Of course I was building on an analogy about pizzas someone else stated so

@SherryPalmer well said. Unfortunately it doesn’t fit they ‘they’re stealing our vaccines’ gloaty narrative of posters here to engage their critical thinking on this!