Why should the UK vaccine supply be diverted to Europe?

[lovelemoncurd]

They ordered 3 months later than the UK. They have themselves less time to sort glitches. They have been slow to the table and now they wish to punish to UK for being efficient.

I was a remain voter. I'm starting to change my mind!

@MessAllOver do you disagree with the science behind mass vaccination of the population including healthy people & how that protects all?

@MessAllOver its the tone you use like I came on her to shake it up as opposed to I came on here to
Show another side .and you pick and choose what to answer
Like I said you must be fully aware you turning down a vaccine here will not mean it goes elsewhere straight away ? You haven't answered anyone re : herd immunity ,as personally thats why I intend to have the jab in the hope it protects others around me , like my bf who is having chemo and will not be able to have a jab but covid would be a huge risk to her.
Have you done loads to raise awareness about covax ? Raised funds , wrote to your mp?

@marbellamarc they don't seem to answer that one , which is my understanding of why we all have it as no job is 100% either .

@redtoothbrush I get what you mean about the uk leaving and eu being able to easily persuade others to go along , where as likely the uk wouldn't of
It goes to show there are always flaws in every system and maybe its something the eu will learn, it could of gone the other way.

well i've been accused of being stupid & lacking humanity because I believe in the principles of vaccination so it's interesting to know the alternative to the science?

@RedToothBrush - India is lined up to produce effectively much of the AZ Covax supply, because geographically they are the manufacturer for cold chain supply for all SE Asia and Africa. They knew very well that regardless of approvals elsewhere, they had a market in Covax.

So the UK have bought a subscription veg box, quantities and delivery dates agreed. The EU have tried to order a larder full, and the greengrocer has told the EU, we will do our best given our other orders.

The EU larder isn't quite built yet either, but that hasn't stopped the EU describing their purchase ordering systems as 'advanced'.

I get what you mean about the uk leaving and eu being able to easily persuade others to go along , where as likely the uk wouldn't of

How do you know we wouldn't have? We would have had massive political pressure applied to us to fall in line, just like all the other member states have.

Personally I'm very glad we didn't have to waste time wrangling with the EU and that we could just get on with signing contracts for the vaccines we wanted and fast. Not being a part of the EU has served us very well in this instance.

So the UK have bought a subscription veg box, quantities and delivery dates agreed. The EU have tried to order a larder full, and the greengrocer has told the EU, we will do our best given our other orders.

The EU larder isn't quite built yet either, but that hasn't stopped the EU describing their purchase ordering systems as 'advanced'.

Yes, but according to some on here it's all our fault because if we were still in the EU, we could have shown other countries the light

The UK has a lot more Covid deaths per 100,000 than the rest of Europe.

It's logical to suggest the UK wouldn't have played along with the EC procurement, we never did play that well with the others because we always thought we knew best. (Sometimes we did, like this time.)

@marbellamarc exactly all along we have been told only a vaccine could achieve herd immunity.
If just vaccinating those who are older / at risk meant we were all protected then happy to not have one, but that is not my understanding.
We have higher numbers this time of younger people in icu and we are lockdown so what would those figures look like if we weren't.
I think uk will give up some vaccinations at some point when it is safe for the population to do so.
The eu want more so they can protect there populations , understandably and they are right to question az and look at the contract they have, but not see the uk's . We are only vaccinating what we are because we are leaving a longer gap and I am sure other countries will look to see how this works and may adopt the same strategy if it goes well and vaccination supply remains low. Surely if we gave up some now we would not be able to even offer second jabs to some who have them as this will be based on supply expected and we are pushing that as it is.

I have to be honest here in saying that had the uk been in the EU still, i suspect the UK would not have gone along with a centralised purchasing anyway and would have broken ranks to ensure their own supply anyway. And that probably would have led to other countries following suit which would have meant the EU itself weren't left in quite the mess it now finds itself.

In order for us to be in the procurement scheme we would have had to forfeit our vaccine work which was already well underway, so we didn't join.

Had we joined we would have been in the same position as Germany are now, we would have had to go along with he procurement rules until it looked like it wasn't going to work, by which time it would have been too late for us to buy the quantity we needed in the timeframe required.

Why haven't other countries broken away as Germany have?

Just came up on my telegraph app 😳😳

Had we joined we would have been in the same position as Germany are now, we would have had to go along with he procurement rules until it looked like it wasn't going to work, by which time it would have been too late for us to buy the quantity we needed in the timeframe required.

I agree - this is a far more plausible scenario.

Just came up on my telegraph app

Fucking hell!

@dongdingdong I don't for sure but we didn't always play ball , plus we have been in a worse position than most of europe .
Thats what I don't get people on here are always saying we have highest death rate , highest cases in europe ( all though per capita not always true) and one of the worst death rates in the world , yet we get the vaccinations ordered well and rolled out well and criticised for that,by that argument australia and nz shouldn't even be doing any as there cases are low and they have relative normality , but we all know real world doesn't work like that.
And australia I believe have donated heavily as well so this isn't meant to be against them.

[quote donewithitalltodayandxmas]@redtootbrush my understanding is its only a short term supply issue and the uk is only going to get higher risks done prob april/ may with 2 jabs, remember we are gambling and spreading doses out in order to achieve more with the first dose.
And maybe things could change going forward but a goverment won't announce that now why we are all sat at home.
They need the proof that the hospitals admissions and deaths are coming down, you only need to see on here how many think they should have before elderly.
And to do all over 50's will likely be more in summer , with other vaccinations on the horizon it could all be very different as more supplies come. [/quote]
The first results of the vaccination programme wont become apparent until mid feb. There needs to be a clear pattern of change to be sure its working. That realistically takes us to March 8th (when the restrictions are up for renewal in Parliament)

My feeling is things will still be difficult in March. There seems to be constriction in supply of vaccine already happening (possibly to enable the withholding of some pfizer second doses now). Plus that's when demand for second doses kicks in. Thats likely to be true for a while regardless of the issue with AZ and the EU.

I think March will be more difficult than anticipated because we will over run the 15th Feb target. Not by much but enough to be a bit of a headache for Johnson timings and desire to start reopening 8th March. He is going to face a show down with tory back benchers.

Johnson and Hancock kind of know the timings on this as they will have a fair idea of supplies coming through. That alone is reason enough to try to resist / stall EU demands for at least a fortnight or so even if the EU is right and AZ are wrong. The second doses are the issue - the uk are going to have to plan for this accordingly.

Another couple of weeks as we are make the world of difference to how our overall strategy is likely to play out so i think the uk staying out of it for now and letting AZ get on with it serves the uk. If it doesn't go the uks way expect the uk to later get involved, huff and puff and stall for a week or so by which time weve largely covered our own arses anyway.

Other factors in the uk strategy shouldnt be forgotten in any of these contexts. Hospitalisations have only just peaked in some places and the pressure on hospitals will continue for some time because lower age groups haven't been vaccinated yet. And the unions are going to be really shitty if a return to school is announced without teachers starting to be vaccinated.

That means March and April are sticky politically for the uk and the situation wont have improved as much as people want it to be. What vaccine we get in March/April is therefore perhaps more crucial than even now because thats when the squeeze on demand peaks.

Heading into May the situation already should be improving massively. Thats the point at which if the EU is still struggling it becomes much harder to justify internally and from a wider national interest not being a bit more generous (Ireland excepting).

The big thing in reality is going to be less about vaccines and more about the Tory split on lockdown. I actually think Johnson wants to keep things locked down slightly longer to remedy the hospital / cases more and to be in a better position to appease the unions so the EU being difficult makes it easier for him to sell a couple more weeks of restrictions to the public and party. The whole row might actually be used to aid Johnson's prefered timetable ultimately.

I think whoever is right or wrong, nothing will go to the EU immediately when they really need it most as their own strategy is in tatters. Simply because the uk is still so desperate for it and March / April is crunch point for the UK. Financially the uk cannot afford to do differently.

Im sure the EU probably know thus, but they have to be seen to be doing something, even though the reality is there is probably little they can now do to change much. Even threatening AZ with legal action really. Even if the EU is justified...

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/28/astrazeneca-vaccine-site-belgium-raided-request-european-commission/

Doesn’t appear to be behind a paywall

@heyheyimabeleaver haven't hungry ?

From the Telegraph:

“The Belgian Health Minister said that the raid was carried out on behalf of the commission. It was aimed at proving whether or not AstraZeneca’s explanation for the failure in supply was genuine.

A European Commission spokesman confirmed the inspection. “We do not comment on the scope, on why it's been undertaken and what has been audited,” the spokesman said, before refusing to answer if Brussels had ordered the raid”

@RedToothBrush yes that all makes sense and my point we are not in a good position yet ourselves to give anything up like some on here are saying.
We are gambling with the gap between doses as it is .
I do think march 8th will be vert few restrictions lifted in all honesty.
Eu are going for Az pp has posted link

Why haven't other countries broken away as Germany have?

money?

No way, the eu should paddle its own canoe.

@RedToothBrush that's a big reach!