Why should the UK vaccine supply be diverted to Europe?

[lovelemoncurd]

They ordered 3 months later than the UK. They have themselves less time to sort glitches. They have been slow to the table and now they wish to punish to UK for being efficient.

I was a remain voter. I'm starting to change my mind!

@Backbee

Everyone crowing over the EU's failure (and they have failed abjectly, no question about that) should remember that the consequence will be that more people will die.

As part of the bigger picture, the longer lockdown rages on, the more people that will die for reasons here other than covid, the more jobs that will be lost, plunging more people into poverty, the more education children will have missed- which will overwhelmingly affect the poorest children. Yes it's the same everywhere, but we haven't done anything deviant to secure a supply, we haven't been dishonest, lied, cheated, or bribed. Are you also expecting countries such as the US to donate some vaccines, or is it just us who have actually been treated like shit by the EU over this.

Fully agree with this.

@3asAbird

1. Pfizer ownership can be easily googled:

money.cnn.com/quote/shareholders/shareholders.html?symb=PFE&subView=institutional

No, GErmany -as a state- doesn't seem to have a stake in it
BioNtech also doesn't seem to be state owned. Some 60% is in the founder + Struengmann family's hands.

1. I don't know AZ manufacturing facilities in India precisely and you can google it, but I do know that SSI (something serum institute) -who are the major manufacturers there- has brought the right to produce the vaccine. So they are not an AZ factory and not making vaccines for AZ. So EU would have no right to ask them for anything in this instance, i think

1. The EU is not withholding anything. You're right, it's not theirs to do so.

But as we have left the EU and now have trade agreement (sort of) in place it is within their rights to monitor (and change) what products are going in/out.

1. From others source as well, what I gather is that the EU is despicable for even thinking that they can hold the UK "hostage" re:P. vaccine, but UK doing even more than that - by AZ not fulfilling their contractual obligations are perfectly right to so so. Double standards much?

Pfizer will sue the EU into the middle of next week if the EU acts to stop Pfizer fulfilling contracts from EU manufacturing plants.

And given the AZ vaccine is being provided at cost, the EU should think long and hard before taking legal action against a highly successful company and potentially affecting its viability. How many businesses would then feel the EU is a great place to do business?

I haven’t seen anything from the EU to suggest that AZ is not fulfilling their contractual obligations. Firstly, it appears the EU/AZ contract is “best efforts” and secondly, the EMA hasn’t even approved the vaccine yet!

Vulnerable children health wise always seem to be forgotten in the “once the vulnerable are vaccinated”. At present they cannot be vaccinated and are reliant on extremely low levels of community infection. So healthy 30 years olds not wanting the vaccine until all the vulnerable are vaccinated worldwide are ignoring the young vulnerable, many who have not been seen and mostly forgotten since March.

@Boulshired

Vulnerable children health wise always seem to be forgotten in the “once the vulnerable are vaccinated”. At present they cannot be vaccinated and are reliant on extremely low levels of community infection. So healthy 30 years olds not wanting the vaccine until all the vulnerable are vaccinated worldwide are ignoring the young vulnerable, many who have not been seen and mostly forgotten since March.

Israel approved P. for 16-18 year olds. They are also looking at vaccinating 12-18, vulnerable children. Data should be coming in from them in a bout 6-10 weeks.

UK says it fully expects to receive all the 100m AZ doses it has ordered before anyone else, also expects to get its 40m Pfizer doses too.

Gets "supply us first" into its contract with AZ.

Then says "Vaccine nationalism is very wrong" (pull that ladder up jack)

Personally i wouldn't feel happy getting vaccinated before a vulnerable person in europe or indeed anywhere else.

[quote TheSunIsStillShining]@3asAbird

1. Pfizer ownership can be easily googled:

money.cnn.com/quote/shareholders/shareholders.html?symb=PFE&subView=institutional

No, GErmany -as a state- doesn't seem to have a stake in it
BioNtech also doesn't seem to be state owned. Some 60% is in the founder + Struengmann family's hands.

1. I don't know AZ manufacturing facilities in India precisely and you can google it, but I do know that SSI (something serum institute) -who are the major manufacturers there- has brought the right to produce the vaccine. So they are not an AZ factory and not making vaccines for AZ. So EU would have no right to ask them for anything in this instance, i think

1. The EU is not withholding anything. You're right, it's not theirs to do so.

But as we have left the EU and now have trade agreement (sort of) in place it is within their rights to monitor (and change) what products are going in/out.

1. From others source as well, what I gather is that the EU is despicable for even thinking that they can hold the UK "hostage" re:P. vaccine, but UK doing even more than that - by AZ not fulfilling their contractual obligations are perfectly right to so so. Double standards much?[/quote]

But we already established Oxford az is part British owned private company no state ownership by the british government. Yes they invested in research but that doesn't guarantee them supply. Ordering early paying in full approving earlier and ensuring a decent contract has ensured we have enough supply. Our government can't force a part British private firm to send stock to Europe right now.

The contact issue is between Europe and az.

Britain's just caught in the middle.

How they can then threaten withhold phizer exports to UK another privately owned company who signed a contract with the UK.
Unfortunately as discussed they can't deliver as much as we ordered but UK government is being patient its not threatened phizer with court or demanded they find supply from somewhere else.
I can't see either vaccine company being very happy with the EU right now.
Why are the EU not taking court action against phizer as technically they failed to deliver.

Also confused by comments we will go through export logs and find evidence that vaccines were sent from EU to UK.
I mean we haven't denied that have we components of the az vaccine comes from factories based in Europe not owned by the EU.

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

I haven’t seen anything from the EU to suggest that AZ is not fulfilling their contractual obligations. Firstly, it appears the EU/AZ contract is “best efforts” and secondly, the EMA hasn’t even approved the vaccine yet!

And of course, AZ also has contractual arrangements with the U.K. If there is currently limited supply then it may be the terms of these contracts obliges AZ to prioritise the latter. Nothing to do with nationalism.

@Bluethrough

UK says it fully expects to receive all the 100m AZ doses it has ordered before anyone else, also expects to get its 40m Pfizer doses too.

Gets "supply us first" into its contract with AZ.

Then says "Vaccine nationalism is very wrong" (pull that ladder up jack)

Personally i wouldn't feel happy getting vaccinated before a vulnerable person in europe or indeed anywhere else.

How old are you?
You could always opt out

Personally i wouldn't feel happy getting vaccinated before a vulnerable person in europe or indeed anywhere else

This will be the new stick to beat yourself with, it's selfish to have a vaccine.

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

Pfizer will sue the EU into the middle of next week if the EU acts to stop Pfizer fulfilling contracts from EU manufacturing plants.

And given the AZ vaccine is being provided at cost, the EU should think long and hard before taking legal action against a highly successful company and potentially affecting its viability. How many businesses would then feel the EU is a great place to do business?

Good points

“Europeans don’t do queues* Marvellous! They really don’t !

Basically it’s akin to your ordering a Buzz Lightyear (insert toy of moment) in August and then when supplies have run out everyone roaring that they should be shared out because they were dithering about buying one until the 15th December.

Marb
People with job security telling others to lockdown for as long as it takes

Now vaccine opt outers with low risk saying others are selfish

On it goes - load of bolleaux just easy to type

The point you miss is that its immoral to knowingly take treatment that you don't need from someone who does need it.

Whether that is healthy young person in Brighton having a vaccination ahead of a vulnerable person in Bristol or in Berlin.

Thats why there is a priority list.

@marbellamarc

Personally i wouldn't feel happy getting vaccinated before a vulnerable person in europe or indeed anywhere else

This will be the new stick to beat yourself with, it's selfish to have a vaccine.

I thought that. I'm 45 with no health conditions that I'm aware of and I'll be having the vaccine if it ever gets to my turn! I'm obviously a very selfish individual as I want my life back!

The point you miss is that its immoral to knowingly take treatment that you don't need from someone who does need it.

Is it 'immoral' to spend money on luxuries for yourself when it could be used to feed or house a homeless person in Berlin?

After all, you don't need a new phone or pair of shoes.

@MarshaBradyo true dat & I bet they would be complaining if we didn't have a vaccine!

I thought that. I'm 45 with no health conditions that I'm aware of and I'll be having the vaccine if it ever gets to my turn! I'm obviously a very selfish individual as I want my life back!

Of course but do you think at 45yo and healthy you should be getting vaccinated right now?

Do you believe the vaccination priority list should be abandoned and we have a free for all?
Perhaps the wealthy can jump the queue and buy their lives back?

[quote marbellamarc]@MarshaBradyo true dat & I bet they would be complaining if we didn't have a vaccine! [/quote]
They probably get hot and bothered about anti vaxxers too

@IcedPurple

The point you miss is that its immoral to knowingly take treatment that you don't need from someone who does need it.

Is it 'immoral' to spend money on luxuries for yourself when it could be used to feed or house a homeless person in Berlin?

After all, you don't need a new phone or pair of shoes.

you know i'm right, so you divert to an argument thats bollox.

Of course but do you think at 45yo and healthy you should be getting vaccinated right now?

But healthy 45 year olds aren't getting vaccinated right now, are they? They'll have to wait until the priority groups have been done.

Strawman argument.

*They probably get hot and bothered about anti vaxxers too8

no argument, so divert to more bollox

The point you miss is that its immoral to knowingly take treatment that you don't need from someone who does need it.

Where is the line drawn? Ok to shop at Tesco's even though they underpaid dozens of staff? Ok to use Amazon. Ok to buy stuff from China? Ok to buy a 2nd property because some are homeless? Ok to contribute to climate change when some are starving due to drought? Ok to eat cake when some are hungry?

Yesterday 15:09 MyHeartIsNeverOnTime

Possibly because the first 3-4 million doses of the vaccine used here were diverted from European factories. It’s been reported multiple times it’s the Telegraph and the Independent, but seems to have been conveniently forgotten in the current row.“

Irrelevant really when the vaccine hadn’t yet been approved in the EU. Still hasn’t.