Why should the UK vaccine supply be diverted to Europe?

[lovelemoncurd]

They ordered 3 months later than the UK. They have themselves less time to sort glitches. They have been slow to the table and now they wish to punish to UK for being efficient.

I was a remain voter. I'm starting to change my mind!

I beg to differ, and no, I don't feel inclined to help the Commission out in any way at all.

Dongdingdong

I do feel a bit uneasy receiving the vaccine before someone more vulnerable regardless of where in the world they live.”

I would have felt that way during the first wave. My husband is CEV, our youngest has asthma. I’m 55, assumed to be the fit and healthy one but .... I have rheumatoid arthritis (never had an official diagnosis because I haven’t sought one, don’t let it stop - family friends in me - me but it’s there) and chronic veinous insufficiency (again, don’t let it stop me but it’s painful and causes infected phlebitis pretty regularly). I’m not in any priority group but having heard the story on PM radio 4 this week of an hitherto “healthy” 50 year old lady who died leaving 14 and 21 year old sons after contracting the new strain in November, I don’t feel that way now.

This is one of the few things our Govt. has got right and I hope our allocation is secure.

The point I have been making all along, whether you agree with it or not, is that imo a vulnerable or elderly person should receive the vaccine before a healthy young person, no matter where they are located in the world.

I have not said a single word in defence of the EU or the Commission. You have misread my posts.

@MessAllOver

Everyone crowing over the EU's failure (and they have failed abjectly, no question about that) should remember that the consequence will be that more people will die.

We should be asking ourselves whether there is anything we can reasonably do to help.

So we did what you said and then your child, nice, nephew, sister, brother etc. Died would you still say the same thing? Would you be like well its a shame we didn't vaccinate these groups but at least another person in another country lived.

Britain has already contributed to Covax.

Yes, we have contributed a measly £548M. For comparison, we spent £849M on eat out to help out. The EU has only contributed 500M euros but I don't know whether that's on top of contributions from individual EU countries.

Covax has a shortfall of $28BN. That's what is standing in the way of vaccinating 20% of the population of all countries. It's not enough to just handwave and say 'there's a system in place' because without adequate funding the system will fail. Wealthy countries could meet the whole of that shortfall tomorrow if the will was there.

Covax is also requesting that countries donate spare doses but I don't think this means we should be disrupting our current priority list (health care workers, over 50's, clinically vulnerable). Like other wealthy countries we took a punt and entered contracts for the supply of lots of different candidate vaccines, even before we knew whether they would be safe and effective. If all of the vaccines we have ordered are successful in phase 3 trials and are approved by MHRA we'll have enough to vaccinate the entire population twice over. Obviously we don't need that much.

@LangClegsInSpace I wouldn't call that measly and the eat out scheme was to help keep the economy afloat so that cost is to balance it and probably less than bailing out lots of failed companies and even more furlough , uc etc
I think We are one of the highest donars

The point I have been making all along, whether you agree with it or not, is that imo a vulnerable or elderly person should receive the vaccine before a healthy young person, no matter where they are located in the world.

I disagree with that.

As a county as part of the western world we are happy to fly for a holiday or increase road traffic by having multiple online deliveries even though that has an effect on global warming which affects poorer nations & contributes to droughts etc. We are comfortable with using drugs despite the increase in gang violence & youth stabbings. We are ok with cheap clothes or mobile phones shipped from other countries where people earn peanuts/have lower life expectancy etc so I don't really see the difference morally.

We shouldn't be bailing out EU countries though. Covax is meant to ensure that low income countries, which were not in a position to preorder millions of doses of vaccines that may or may not prove effective or safe, are not left up shit creek.

What we are now witnessing is a nasty sharp-elbowed squabble between wealthy countries, all of whom should be contributors towards the equitable distribution of vaccines, not recipients.

As I said previously, the whole thing is unseemly.

Also you can't just ignore the young population as we also need the economy to still work.

In December, the Government said that four million doses of the vaccine developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University would be delivered by the end of 2020. It also said that those supplies would be imported from AstraZeneca factories in Germany and the Netherlands because British plants, which now provide the whole UK stock, were hit by delays.

Just going back to the point that 4 million vaccines were sent from Europe to the UK in December.

checks date

So the EU knew the uk had this order. It was printed in the British press that they had. They also believe they had priority and would get vaccines first according to their contract.

checks date again

It is the 27th / 28th January.

4 million vaccines is around 2 weeks current production in the uk plants. Thats out of 100,000 doses ordered.

At the time the UK hadn't quite approved AZ. But were about to.

check dates once more

The EU had various people comment that the UK was experimenting with AZ on its citizens and they wanted to see how things went in the uk before making decisions.

At the time brexit talks were at their height.

And yet the EU dont appear to have chased up on their missing pre orders until around the 24th January. Just days before EMA approval is likely and its going to come out just how much feet dragging has been going on. If they thought they were prioritised first, why no questions about where their supplies were when the UK were starting to get theirs?

Where exactly is the oversight in this? Why wait a full month to start complaining on this. Why only do so days before approval is due? Why nothing when you know the UK is recieving vaccine? Why now? Why not before?

So just how much are the EU asking for in supply from the uk factories? The return of the 4mil? Remember its two weeks production. Where is the other 96% going to come from? What is the capacity in the EU? Strikes me its probably higher than the uk.

4 mil out of 100mil doses is not really going to go very far. Then what? Demanding more?

@donewithitalltodayandxmas in the context of everything else we spend as a country it's small change. It's also a far far better investment than eat out to help out.

[quote FitzsimmonsMarvel]@IcedPurple the U.K. did not ‘pay for the vaccines’ - what utter nonsense. It was developed and paid for by multiple countries including the EU! The US alone gave them 1 billion in funding back in May 2020.

Honestly so much nonsense on this thread from posters who seem to think it was only British money, British workers and British ideas that made the vaccine.[/quote]
Where is your source for this?

British company based in Yorkshire 'Croda' provides the ingredient which carries the active part of the Pfizer vaccine into the body]]

So yeah, I doubt the EU will be able to deliver on the threat to withhold Pfizer vaccine from the UK

@LangClegsInSpace at the moment it is more than small change ,we are cutting lots.
If we can start to re open the economy then we can maybe help more going forward
The eat out to help out kept many a pub going and people on work here as well .
If all the vaccines come good maybe we may be able to donate surplus ones as well .
Fingers crossed more are approved and manufacturing capacity can improve as well so we can roll out quickly .

OliviaPopeRules eg. this
https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/az-nets-396m-downpayment-for-300m-plus-eu-vaccine-doses

@WinterdiscontentGlorioussummer thats to putchase it thoogh

But lots of countries have contributed to helping with the vaccines it has to be a worldwide effort on this scale which it has been and the funding from many countries is why we have the vaccines quickly.
Roll on a couple more being approved and then all can start vaccinating quickly

@Ylvamoon

Yep it's about the contracts.

AZ agreed to supply X amount by Y date.
Now they say it's not going to happen because of problems at Z production plant.

So naturally the EU asks why AZ can't deliver as they have other production plants (in the UK) and are able to fulfil most of the order.

My gess is AZ has a "better offer " from somewhere else. And feel they don't have to honour the contract with the EU...

How things are reported in the media is a different issue. Great for a Brexit boost, after to wake up call things like import / export charges. And judging by this thread it's working!

Have only got so far in this thread, and am sure by the time I get to the end someone else would have explained better, but ...

UK signed contract first - taking a risk in doing so early on. Said contract had terms in place re size of order and delivery. EU took a further 3 months to sign a contact - and when they signed it they knew the UK had specifics re order prioritisation and they knew that their contract was based on “best efforts” only.

There are no “better offers” for AZ to take. It was agreed from the outset (and very important to the Oxford team) that this was a not-for-profit effort to, eventually, be a benefit worldwide. There are slightly different costs by country, due to local resources etc, but there is no chance of sacking a country off due to gazumping from elsewhere.

The UK ordered early, so had time to sort out glitches in the HUGE scaling-up process in advance of regulatory approval being given. The EU delayed contracts, so are behind on their production facilities sorting out the same issues - and also still haven’t even approved it for use!

The UK haven’t done anything wrong here. Am fairly certain that AZ haven’t done anything wrong either.

Separately, not necessarily from your post, but I don’t like AZ being referred to as “our” vaccine. Yes, it was developed by Oxford and is being scaled up by AZ, but the whole purpose, eventually, is for it to be cost effective globally. There is nothing wrong with the UK having secured an early contract, and wanting to see that contract through. But the fact it originated here isn’t the argument in my eyes (equally goes for Pfizer etc).

@MessAllOver

The question is one of need. I need the vaccine much less than an 80 year old in Sao Paulo

You are pushing a globalist agenda

In your ideal world the allocation of all resources should be dictated by a supranational body

And why stop with vaccines? Let a gang of unelected despotic bureaucrats distribute all medicine, food, housing, access to media, etc as they see fit

This is not a world most of us would like to live in. Why even consider this as an idea?

Of course each nation should look after their people first (this doesn't mean that other countries should not be assisted if feasible once we get our own house in order)

Imagine the outcry and insults our government and PM would receive if they decided to help someone in Brazil while infection rates and deaths in the UK are still sky high.

There seems to be some poor information about Covax. No, EC funding isn't additional to individual countries, the EC contributed nothing and EU countries have contributed very little, only $2bn needed this year.
UK funding £548m so far and pushing other countries with match funding:
www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-raises-1bn-so-vulnerable-countries-can-get-vaccine.
EU funding a measly €500m:
ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2262.
UN said the funding gap was $4.3bn, if only the USA and EU gave proportionally to funding given by the UK and Australia then it would far exceed target:
news.un.org/en/story/2020/12/1079842.
Total raised US$4bn of US$6.8bn funding for 2bn doses this year, the main risks described as not getting enough funding (UK is doing its share) and competitive pharmaceutical pricing (AZ agreement commits them to non profit):
www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00044-9
Gavi explains how the AZ doses are coming from India (see, there's a plan) :
www.gavi.org/covax-facility.

@trulydelicious. You are putting words in my mouth. Please don't tell me what I believe. Where did I mention all resources?

@MessAllOver

Where did I mention all resources?

You didn't. But that's my point, it's a slippery slope. Once you start naturalising that idea, why stop there? There are many needs, not just the Covid vaccine. It opens the door to a globalist model most people would not adhere to (rightly so)

@RedToothBrush

In December, the Government said that four million doses of the vaccine developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University would be delivered by the end of 2020. It also said that those supplies would be imported from AstraZeneca factories in Germany and the Netherlands because British plants, which now provide the whole UK stock, were hit by delays.

Just going back to the point that 4 million vaccines were sent from Europe to the UK in December.

checks date

So the EU knew the uk had this order. It was printed in the British press that they had. They also believe they had priority and would get vaccines first according to their contract.

checks date again

It is the 27th / 28th January.

4 million vaccines is around 2 weeks current production in the uk plants. Thats out of 100,000 doses ordered.

At the time the UK hadn't quite approved AZ. But were about to.

check dates once more

The EU had various people comment that the UK was experimenting with AZ on its citizens and they wanted to see how things went in the uk before making decisions.

At the time brexit talks were at their height.

And yet the EU dont appear to have chased up on their missing pre orders until around the 24th January. Just days before EMA approval is likely and its going to come out just how much feet dragging has been going on. If they thought they were prioritised first, why no questions about where their supplies were when the UK were starting to get theirs?

Where exactly is the oversight in this? Why wait a full month to start complaining on this. Why only do so days before approval is due? Why nothing when you know the UK is recieving vaccine? Why now? Why not before?

So just how much are the EU asking for in supply from the uk factories? The return of the 4mil? Remember its two weeks production. Where is the other 96% going to come from? What is the capacity in the EU? Strikes me its probably higher than the uk.

4 mil out of 100mil doses is not really going to go very far. Then what? Demanding more?

Reading between the lines on countries approval of Oxford az.

We had some cutting comments from Dr fauci in America saying we rushed approval.
We also had some cutting comments from the EU.
I think we ordered and paid for many vaccines long before we knew they would even be successful or how much or how fast they could deliver.
We did not put all our eggs in 1 basket.
I think fda are dragging their feet in usa as they want American first they want phizer and moderna do di well despite it costing significant more and harder to store and distribute.

I don't think the trial data was maybe as strong for Oxford so UK roll-out feels like one massive trial.
I think EU or members within it spreading negative rumors abouts Oxford not being successful with elderly is really strange.
Its clearly not their prefered vaccine.
Why have they approved moderna before Oxford when they already said they cabt deliver until spring.
I think its combination of phizer not being able to produce enough and they said the same to UK they can't deliver as much cof that vaccine at the speed they want.
Which vis why it makes sense to approve a vaccine they actually have supply of right now.
Clearly behind the scenes there's some some anger about Sanofi which macron pushed and that keeps getting pushed back.
All of a sudden EU realised its only Oxford they can get now.
Why have they still not approved it?
It smacks of politics and for once its not the UK politicians causing the trouble.
I think best thing British government could do is stay out of it and be diplomatic.

Is this why we stopped publishing how much stock we have?

I suppose the logical thing to do is to say we'll help the Republic of Ireland with their supply.

@JamesAnderson

I suppose the logical thing to do is to say we'll help the Republic of Ireland with their supply.

Deffo.