Germany saying AZ vaccine only 8% effective in over 65s *MNHQ noting that this story has been widely debunked*

[dbIdb]

What fresh hell is this.

Why, why, why was the Oxford trial/data reporting so sloppy?

How has it come to this??

Yes! A woman insisting that no does not mean no!

Well what ever happens will not happen instantly if at all. So we continue to jab people as fast as we can. Boris and co neutral or quiet for as long as possible.

By the time the EU has taken any action if at all. A few more million people will be jabbed. Hopefully are priority list pretty smashed.

As for Sturgeon if she does this only a nutter will still support her. Sure she will talk about fairness or something that isn't actually the point but people want her gone.

Between the whole Brexit leave/remain and the Scottish independence splits this EU nonsense may actually bring the country back together.

It depends. The link I posted a page or two back suggested the EU could impose blocks on vaccine export as early as tomorrow. I have a personal stake in it: I was vaccinated with Pfizer a couple of weeks ago (NHS clinician) and am now deeply worried that the second jab may not happen due to this.

The whole thing stinks.

It can't come to that. There really would be some very bad 'optics' on that.

Remember the UK threw a lot of money at Pfizer, they too will have motivation to fight such a ban!

Let’s look at this in a bit more detail. If Scotland’s leaders now see themselves with more in common with France and Germany than they do with England, that a very fucking scary proposition if we end up in another wartime scenario.

@justanotherneighinparadise

Let’s look at this in a bit more detail. If Scotland’s leaders now see themselves with more in common with France and Germany than they do with England, that a very fucking scary proposition if we end up in another wartime scenario.

My husband just said "wars have been started over less". I don't think he meant it seriously, but honestly who knows in these weird times.

I know this was back on page 1. But still.

The EU paid out hundreds of millions in advance for the development of this vaccine (this investment would have also helped the UK in getting it developed and manufactured so quickly) and all of a sudden AZ have told the EU that they will only be able to deliver on 40% of what has been promised. So far, they haven't come up with clear reasons or evidence as why this is so and the EU not unreasonably want to know where the money and the drugs are.

The vaccine wouldn't exist without EU money, yet 60% of their order is 'missing'?
If it was the other way around, do we really think the UK wouldn't be kicking off?

You might have found answers if you'd read the other 26 pages @saraclara.

I guess I wasn’t thinking about the potential for war now but certainly in the future. I guess in modern times it’s more likely to be a Cold War but this is certainly telling us who are allies are!! I guess that might be a good thing.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

It can't come to that. There really would be some very bad 'optics' on that.

Remember the UK threw a lot of money at Pfizer, they too will have motivation to fight such a ban!

Do we know how much the UK government provided to Pfizer for development?

Personally I would look at restoring the 4 million AZ doses the UK took from the European factory earlier this month, and then draw a line under things. Anything beyond that is Astrazenica’s problem to sort out. I think it’s very sketchy that AZ have not published the contract with the EU even though the EU is now calling for it. Suggests they are telling untruths.

@saraclara

They may well be kicking off, but whether they would have grounds to do so is another matter.

The contractual position is key. Either AZ are in breach of their contract with the EU or they are not. If not then, regardless of how much money the EU handed over, they are not entitled to demand changes now.

Without seeing both contracts all of this is speculation,

"Suggests they are telling untruths."

Or that it contained commercially sensitive information.

AZ could be telling untruths. Or they could be giving the EC the opportunity to finish their tantrum, tire themselves out and sleep on it, to give them a chance to realise that if the contracts ARE made public then they’re going to end up looking rather stupid.

The problem is that the EU refer to 'missing doses.'

The doses are not missing.

1. The EU has not cleared AZ for use

1. AZ needs to build capacity into it's lines for the EU just as they did for the UK.

1. AZ have said that despite the temporary shortfall the EU will have enough doses for it's over 80'sto be vaccinated by March, just a couple of weeks after the UK despite having placed an order 3 months later...

And other equally clear facts that neither side disagree over.

This is a ludicrous situation that really need not be happening!

The real question is WHY IS IT HAPPENING. Call me cynical, but look to what is being hidden by this.

Myheart that is saying that the EU paid for a contract they did not see or sign etc.

There is something very odd, skewed behind this!

As I've read it, the NHS currently only approve mixing vaccines types in exceptional circumstances. Where jab recipients don't know what their first jab was. Where there are supply issues.

It would be useful if this could be underlined and clarified. But presumably they haven't yet got the data.

As I think I pointed out upthread; AZ are currently working with Russia's Sputnik vaccine to see if that improves efficacy rates.

Also, data for over 65s etc is always going to be slower coming forth. Every trial participant has to behave if they have had the placebo and take mask and s.d precautions. Elderly trial participants are also more likely to be taking shielding measures which will, therefore, significantly slow the data in this group.

I cannot see the EU accepting 4 million doses from the UK, when the seem to be setting up to take control of the Pfizer made in Europe, which strangely would be making Pfizer break their contracts.

Nicola Sturheon would side with anyone other than the English. If Russia came to visit she would probably invite Putin in for tea to annoy Westminster.

@MyHeartIsNeverOnTime Personally I would look at restoring the 4 million AZ doses the UK took from the European factory earlier this month, and then draw a line under things. Anything beyond that is Astrazenica’s problem to sort out. I think it’s very sketchy that AZ have not published the contract with the EU even though the EU is now calling for it. Suggests they are telling untruths.

Restoring them where exactly. The AZ jab doesn’t have EU approval.

Me. I vote for this woman. Guess that makes me a nutter.

Came on this thread to see what was being said about Germany's decision to limit the Astra Zeneca vaccine for under 65s and found a baying mob making up stories about the FM.

I watched FMQs live today. Baroness-to-be Davidson kept spouting some made up numbers about available vaccines and how the SNP were just sitting on the stocks. So the FM responded by saying she'd publish the real numbers to stop this insane speculation.

But on Mumsnet, we're talking about killing her fellow countrymen and god preserve us, what will happen in the next war.

Still don't understand why the rush if they're not using it on over 65s? Healthcare professionals I suppose?

@soundofsilence1 I think make sense for no.10 to say nothing at the moment until it sees the contract or has all the story, say one thing wrong and it backfired

@FifeQuine that makes more sense and I said on another thread maybe she is publishing as will prove we don't have stockpiles in uk , otherwise we wouldn't be gambling on a bigger gap between doses
Though I think this should only be done with agreements with other unions , they need to be together on this .

Sturgeon should hang her head in shame.

@CuriousaboutSamphire
The real question is WHY IS IT HAPPENING. Call me cynical, but look to what is being hidden by this.
Angry panic is likely to be fear. It's happened suddenly, so my guess is a new variant is spreading fast across the EU and they are just becoming aware. Maybe Kent, maybe Brazil, maybe SA. Citizens are already restless and having to say there are delays to vaccines will lead to upset.
Germany being able to only vaccinate under-65s, hmmmm, oh look we can vaccinate those most likely to spread instead of our vulnerable.