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Riots against lockdown in Europe

818 replies

Downriver · 25/01/2021 09:27

The scenes of young people burning down a COVID testing facility in the Netherlands and burning the Danish PM at a stake in protest against lockdown have really shaken me. Would it happen here? Who is organising this? Fascists? Sometimes I read comments against lockdown on here and I think such a mood is being primed.

OP posts:
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5
GrannyRose15 · 25/01/2021 23:28

[quote trulydelicious]@GrannyRose15

the government has got to see that it is the inevitable consequence of their undemocratic restrictions

The restrictions are in place because we are going through a pandemic due to a virus. The virus is not democratic, no[/quote]
But we are supposed to be. We are supposed to be living in a liberal democracy. That is what we voted for in 2019. It is absolutely unacceptable that this government has locked us up for 10 months and denied us our human rights, virus or no virus. We will always have viruses. We will always have death. What we may not always have is our freedom. We have taken it too much for granted over the last 70 years and do not know how valuable and fragile it is. lets all wake up before it's too late.

Yohoheaveho · 25/01/2021 23:43

@Chersfrozenface

Why did they burn down a testing centre and attack hospitals? And shops? That's an odd way to demonstrate in support for businesses affected by lockdown.

It's the Covid-is-a-fraud crowd + run of the mill hooligans.

Shoot the messenger.... innit
Yohoheaveho · 25/01/2021 23:44

We will always have death
All the same ....isn't it a good idea to avoid it for as long as possible by not catching nasty infections 🤔

GrannyRose15 · 25/01/2021 23:46

@Justthebeerlighttoguide

loosing everything

Really?

I am not sure soldiers who were in the trenches at 17 would say that these youths are loosing everything?

Has it ever occurred to you to think about what those young men were fighting for - exactly the freedoms we have been so willing to give up because we are scared. Makes me weep when I think of them.
Temptashun · 25/01/2021 23:48

@Yohoheaveho

We will always have death All the same ....isn't it a good idea to avoid it for as long as possible by not catching nasty infections 🤔
I think that people should be supported to do so, if that's the sort of life they wish to live.

But what's shocked me is people's feeling of entitlement to not be exposed to a virus, whilst living a lifestyle which demands that others are.

Shelter yourselves, but don't demand that those of us who are willing to keep things running are also denied the things that make life worth living.

GrannyRose15 · 25/01/2021 23:49

@Yohoheaveho

We will always have death All the same ....isn't it a good idea to avoid it for as long as possible by not catching nasty infections 🤔
and treating cancer patients and avoiding suicides and giving people something to live for. I believe in life before death - what some people have now is not life but existence.
umpteennamechanges · 25/01/2021 23:57

@Spiratedaway

It is going to happen when you have lost your business etc and have nothing left you either stand up or people are killing themselves

Anecdotal obviously but all the people I know that have lost their businesses and income (me included) still believe lockdown was for the best overall even if it impacted us particularly badly.

Yohoheaveho · 26/01/2021 00:01

There is no clear best way forward
every option is a bad option
There is no clear way to find a consensus about how to move forward

hopsalong · 26/01/2021 00:06

Why's it taken so long? And where are the riots here? I'm not going to start one, but I'd join one.

I can't think of any moral or ethical system that asserts that people should save other people's lives in profound contradiction of their own happiness, perhaps even their own life, without an ultimate value or principle being asserted. Sure, sign me up to save the basics of liberal democracy and prevent the atrocities of Nazi Germany. I can imagine sacrificing my own life (not that I would have been asked to, as a middle aged woman!) for that. I can even, just about, imagine killing other blameless, innocent people to defend the most important collective freedoms. But sacrificing things of immense value to an individual just to save the lives of a few people I don't know, with no underlying principle other than the repetitive, ever jingling 'save lives'? Why?

The idea that without restrictions everything would be worse is a non-sequitur; we could always, after all, decide that people deserved access to the same care as before and that Covid patients would only be offered treatment if there was spare capacity. Anything else, after all, is shunting the exemplary railroad car away from the group of people it was about to hit. Covid is a new disease. It's shit. But why should I have to worry that the hospital won't be able to treat my three year old if he gets meningitis, because it will be so busy treating an 85 year old with Covid? To me it seems fairer not to displace the (real, unexpected, grievous) harm away from those it affects and towards those that it doesn't. It is frankly immoral to do it to people under 18, who we're meant to be protecting, and who have had NO option to consent to the trade-off by displaying immense altruism.

Even as it is, the class and economic issues stink. My grandparents could be alive (in their 90s) to be covid patients. Two of them died before 1985, so I never really knew them. That's because they were working-class men. Of course some working-class men born in the 1920s are still alive, but people over 80 aren't a representative sample of their original age group. They're the privileged ones. Society hasn't stinted them. If resources are scarce, why should they get more, at the expense of small children who we've already fucked over for a year as far as education and social interaction goes, and whose goodwill and hard work we (middle-aged people) have now to rely on to have any healthcare at all in the final few decades of our own lives?

Isn't it partly that very few people under 60 are ever going to vote for the appalling Tories again? (I never have.) So the only way for them to cling on to power is by doing everything they can to appease and keep alive their comfortably-off Brexit-loving elderly voters? And fuck everyone else.

The amazing thing is how many people seem happy to be fucked over like this, for the short-term political gain of politicians they don't even like. Morality naturally dictates the opposite. Children first.

umpteennamechanges · 26/01/2021 00:10

Lots of anti-lockdown sentiment on here but in reality poll after poll after poll has shown a vast majority support lockdown and actually feel that the restrictions have been too little, too late.

Those who are saying they only know people who want everything to be opened up are obviously living in a bit of a bubble with people like them or the people they talk to just nod and smile while thinking they're arseholes.

umpteennamechanges · 26/01/2021 00:16

Has it ever occurred to you to think about what those young men were fighting for - exactly the freedoms we have been so willing to give up because we are scared. Makes me weep when I think of them

Utterly ridiculous that you think they were fighting for the 'right' to be dickheads during a pandemic. I can absolutely guarantee that my Great Grandfather would have thought the total opposite of you so don't be so idiotic as to pretend you know what every single soldier in WWII was fighting for and that it conveniently totally aligns with your own desires.

And sad that you still can't see that there is more at risk than your own life. It risks the lives of healthcare workers, public transport workers, taxi drivers...

...these are the occupations most likely to die among working people. Not the rich and privileged.

LunaHeather · 26/01/2021 00:16

[quote costco]@LunaHeather
I have two anti-lockdown friends, and possibly a third but I don't want to risk putting my cards on the table just yet with her.
Oh and a Scottish friend who is now anti lockdown as he has become an alcoholic and possibly drug addict during lockdown. But I think he's just anti-anything now.[/quote]
To you and tatutata

So much sympathy

The anti anything did make me smile. I was drinking a lot but I've stopped.

A pp asked why no action here - many peaceful protests were tried over the summer but not many wanted to join. I even had a relative say "why are you protesting now lockdown is over". I do think some people have been shocked by further lockdown though I don't know why!

I think a silent seated protest would be good. The optics of the police trying to shift that...

But many protestors just think, we got no support the first time, we are a tiny minority so we give up.

AxMan76 · 26/01/2021 00:17

@hopsalong

Why's it taken so long? And where are the riots here? I'm not going to start one, but I'd join one.

I can't think of any moral or ethical system that asserts that people should save other people's lives in profound contradiction of their own happiness, perhaps even their own life, without an ultimate value or principle being asserted. Sure, sign me up to save the basics of liberal democracy and prevent the atrocities of Nazi Germany. I can imagine sacrificing my own life (not that I would have been asked to, as a middle aged woman!) for that. I can even, just about, imagine killing other blameless, innocent people to defend the most important collective freedoms. But sacrificing things of immense value to an individual just to save the lives of a few people I don't know, with no underlying principle other than the repetitive, ever jingling 'save lives'? Why?

The idea that without restrictions everything would be worse is a non-sequitur; we could always, after all, decide that people deserved access to the same care as before and that Covid patients would only be offered treatment if there was spare capacity. Anything else, after all, is shunting the exemplary railroad car away from the group of people it was about to hit. Covid is a new disease. It's shit. But why should I have to worry that the hospital won't be able to treat my three year old if he gets meningitis, because it will be so busy treating an 85 year old with Covid? To me it seems fairer not to displace the (real, unexpected, grievous) harm away from those it affects and towards those that it doesn't. It is frankly immoral to do it to people under 18, who we're meant to be protecting, and who have had NO option to consent to the trade-off by displaying immense altruism.

Even as it is, the class and economic issues stink. My grandparents could be alive (in their 90s) to be covid patients. Two of them died before 1985, so I never really knew them. That's because they were working-class men. Of course some working-class men born in the 1920s are still alive, but people over 80 aren't a representative sample of their original age group. They're the privileged ones. Society hasn't stinted them. If resources are scarce, why should they get more, at the expense of small children who we've already fucked over for a year as far as education and social interaction goes, and whose goodwill and hard work we (middle-aged people) have now to rely on to have any healthcare at all in the final few decades of our own lives?

Isn't it partly that very few people under 60 are ever going to vote for the appalling Tories again? (I never have.) So the only way for them to cling on to power is by doing everything they can to appease and keep alive their comfortably-off Brexit-loving elderly voters? And fuck everyone else.

The amazing thing is how many people seem happy to be fucked over like this, for the short-term political gain of politicians they don't even like. Morality naturally dictates the opposite. Children first.

Yawn
umpteennamechanges · 26/01/2021 00:20

@hopsalong

Pretty much outlines the total shitehawkery of people with your opinion.

God forbid you might have to be less happy for a while to save lives eh?

Also "a few lives"? Do you have any comprehension of how many people would have died without lockdowns?

Nearly 100,000 dead with lockdowns and restrictions.

How many people's lives are you willing to sacrifice for your happiness?

200,000?

500,000?

I'd actually be really interested in the number...

How serious would things need to be to agree with the current restrictions?

Yohoheaveho · 26/01/2021 00:20

Isn't it partly that very few people under 60 are ever going to vote for the appalling Tories again?
You are completely wrong....about the 'partly'
We are pawns in their power games, why would you expect it to be any different?

barbites · 26/01/2021 00:23

@hopsalong Excellent post.

hopsalong · 26/01/2021 00:25

@umpteennamechanges I feel the opposite. I judge my friends who are vociferously pro-lockdown. Every single one is a well off upper-middle class person who works from home anyway.

Yesterday I was in Waitrose in Notting Hill Gate. Three women, none white, none much younger than me (40s) were having the best time I've seen anyone have in a long time filling other people's 2-hour rapid and Deliveroo orders. That's a shit job and I admired them for making the best of it. They probably weren't at high risk; but they weren't at the lowest level of risk of anyone in society either.

They were bearing the risk of getting and dying from Covid so that people in their multi-million pound houses didn't have to. That's what's happening. Are we grateful? Not really. People were eying them up with that nasty 'I just spotted a covidiot!' prejudicial look.

We're not managing very successfully to get rid of risk, we're just displacing it. And the people who are being harmed are the people who we were already treating like crap. One of the kids in my son's class is a survivor of Grenfell. His parents don't speak English at home and it's a big family. Is this the compensation that British society is offering him, to have no education so that old rich people can stay at home and eat their Deliveroo? After nearly dying in a fire because they didn't want to look out of their window at an ugly 70s council block?

trulydelicious · 26/01/2021 00:28

@umpteennamechanges

Lots of anti-lockdown sentiment on here but in reality poll after poll after poll has shown a vast majority support lockdown and actually feel that the restrictions have been too little, too late

^This

hopsalong · 26/01/2021 00:29

@Yohoheaveho I agree. 'Partly' was a sop. People go nuts when you try to have any discussion about these things, so I try I go gently... It doesn't work of course. The same propaganda-fed 'how thick are you, how many lives do you personally want to end?' line comes back every time.

trulydelicious · 26/01/2021 00:31

@Yohoheaveho

We are pawns in their power games

Get a grip!

Yohoheaveho · 26/01/2021 00:31

But what if we see mutations which kill young people as well?

Yohoheaveho · 26/01/2021 00:34

[quote trulydelicious]@Yohoheaveho

We are pawns in their power games

Get a grip![/quote]
Yes yes, gripping the arms of the sofa...
what next?
(You think me melodramatic 🤔)

trulydelicious · 26/01/2021 00:38

@Yohoheaveho

But what if we see mutations which kill young people as well

Only then some people will start to take this seriously and stop the 'let's go rioting' BS

Rosehip10 · 26/01/2021 00:42

@hopsalong Typical keyboard warrior - if you are so passionate, you organise something? Thought not.

VinylDetective · 26/01/2021 00:43

Still plugging away @trulydelicious? You’re becoming more of a lone voice with every passing day.

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