Thread 2 - how long will people make these sacrifices

[DappledOliveGroves]

First thread is full.

If anyone has the willpower to continue arguing, please carry on!

Here’s the thing, and it’s unpalatable but is part of the answer to the “but the hospitals will be overrun” issue.

Like it or not (and I know it’s not the “NHS dream”), medical care is rationed. Always has been when it comes to the evaluation of the cost effectiveness of new treatments by NICE, now it is rationed on the basis of which condition you’ve got ... anything other than Covid, you need to wait, maybe til your tumour is inoperable, because there aren’t the resources to treat you. Where you live is probably a factor too.

So, we end up with this completely illogical and arbitrary rationing because we don’t want to make hard decisions about how to optimise resource allocation.

The most obvious starting point is a quality adjusted life years (QALY) type methodology and before I hear cries of “but how do we decide? what about dear Dame Judi versus a 29 year old crim?” I would say our health economists and ethicists would determine how it’s done in detail, just as for the funding of other treatments.

Some will be higher on the list, some lower. But it’s really the only alternative to a hierarchy based on who can pay the most or based on illogic like which condition we favour most at the moment.

It goes far beyond people being 'hurt' financially and mentally. It's illegal for some people to work, it's illegal to see your family and friends. The public are being blamed for significant and continuous underfunding and cutting of resources in the NHS. Are the multiple lockdowns proportionate? I'm not wholly sure they are.

The majority of people have been following the rules and playing their part in trying to overcome this. For some people, playing their part has cost them everything. At what point does it get returned? Why is the government actively ignoring the plight of over 3 million ExcludedUK people? Would the pro lockdown arguments we see over and over on mumsnet be the same if they were in a different situation? If they weren't financially secure, or not able to work? I suspect not.

If we want to consider responsibility and opportunity then this should start with the government. Some accountability wouldn't go amiss either.

@Neron

No, their arguments would not be the same if they were in your position.

Moreover, what I think most on this threat are calling out is the utter lack of logic and hypocrisy in the claim to being saintly saviours of the NHS, fellow man etc.

Completely agree with you @lovelylittlepanda

@lovelylittlepanda

Here’s the thing, and it’s unpalatable but is part of the answer to the “but the hospitals will be overrun” issue.

Like it or not (and I know it’s not the “NHS dream”), medical care is rationed. Always has been when it comes to the evaluation of the cost effectiveness of new treatments by NICE, now it is rationed on the basis of which condition you’ve got ... anything other than Covid, you need to wait, maybe til your tumour is inoperable, because there aren’t the resources to treat you. Where you live is probably a factor too.

So, we end up with this completely illogical and arbitrary rationing because we don’t want to make hard decisions about how to optimise resource allocation.

The most obvious starting point is a quality adjusted life years (QALY) type methodology and before I hear cries of “but how do we decide? what about dear Dame Judi versus a 29 year old crim?” I would say our health economists and ethicists would determine how it’s done in detail, just as for the funding of other treatments.

Some will be higher on the list, some lower. But it’s really the only alternative to a hierarchy based on who can pay the most or based on illogic like which condition we favour most at the moment.

@lovelylittlepanda I agree with this so much.

@omygoditsearly, I agree in part, though feel some are shouldering this responsibility to a far greater extent than others.

At what point does it become too much to expect that from some and not others? Or from any at all?

@Neron and @StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind
thank you. I've been nodding furiously at so much you have both said too.

It's so obvious to me, yet it it's somehow so unutterable in the current context.

I think we all have a responsibility to each other to do what we can to slow this disease.

I have a six year old who’s receiving virtually no schooling, is isolated from his peers and is being ignored for great swathes of the day because his parents have to work to keep a roof over his head.

I’m aware many are being put in worse positions.

Who is showing ‘responsibility’ to him and his needs? You can’t expect people who are being thrown under the bus by society to go above and beyond to help it out. You’ve already lost them.

You’ve already lost them
Exactly this.

There is such a divide in society, and I believe the wedge between people is getting larger and larger each day this goes on

@TheKeatingFive

I think we all have a responsibility to each other to do what we can to slow this disease.

I have a six year old who’s receiving virtually no schooling, is isolated from his peers and is being ignored for great swathes of the day because his parents have to work to keep a roof over his head.

I’m aware many are being put in worse positions.

Who is showing ‘responsibility’ to him and his needs? You can’t expect people who are being thrown under the bus by society to go above and beyond to help it out. You’ve already lost them.

@TheKeatingFive the longer this goes on the more furious I am becoming about what is being done to our children.

Mine are 8 and 6, and I'm a single mum working full time from home. I know how fortunate I am compared to some as we live with my parents, and my lovely DM has been working so hard to do their schoolwork with them. She has pretty much saved my sanity. What I cannot tolerate, what is making me so fucking angry is the government's complete failure to acknowledge the strain they are putting on parents, the impact on families and the mental health strain this is causing. I can't really recall this being acknowledged. Our children are being utterly failed, they are entitled to a proper education and to be socialising with their friends. What makes me so completely furious is whilst closing schools and putting so much strain on parents, the government are saying absolutely NOTHING about what they plan to do to help children when they return, what investment they are going to put into helping solve this complete mess. We all know why don't we, they plan on doing sweet fuck all. How dare they ask children and parents to sacrifice so much with no word on what they are going to do to help them in return. It's the same as the NHS, this government have been intent on putting as little as possible into education whilst they've been in power.

What I cannot tolerate, what is making me so fucking angry is the government's complete failure to acknowledge the strain they are putting on parents, the impact on families and the mental health strain this is causing

Exactly

the longer this goes on the more furious I am becoming about what is being done to our children

If the polls are to be believed, you (and I) are in the minority.

There are no suicide statistics yet

No, and there probably never will be - or at least not ones that tell the truth
They'll probably try to claim they all died of Covid ...

I totally agree with everything you said @StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind.

My 5 year old has really been struggling mentally and I can’t see her easily slotting back into school life if they end up going back in the summer or September. She also has medical issues which we are waiting for a referral for which now won’t happen.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

Speaking of being prepared to "pay for" the NHS - the previous poster who lost her business and is now selling her house and the many in similar positions are "paying" in effect, whether they are in a position to (well off) or not. I am outraged in their behalf, and that they are supposed to just suck it up to "save our NHS". It's such BS

Yep, it's awful. Can't imagine how difficult and frightening it must be. Friends of mine bought a small pub in 2019, they'd saved and saved and worked so hard for years to afford it. I think they've managed 8 weeks open and they're now broke, he attempted suicide at Christmas and they're going to have to sell everything.

Spoke to a guy in boots. 20 years in the nhs. Life savings poured Into a little bistro 18 months ago. He opened for 18 weeks last year. Despite spending money on being covid safe, he had to close when his town went into tier 3 in October He will ever reopen again he said. I could’ve wept for him.

Just been watching dancing on ice . Don’t watch much tv. How people like him and people not seeing their families at home must feel seeing the closeness of the dancers dancing..when they’ve lost everything and it’s illegal to see their family too

It’s a joke!

Some excellent and well balanced opinions on this thread. Thank you!

@Puzzledandpissedoff
No, and there probably never will be - or at least not ones that tell the truth. They'll probably try to claim they all died of Covid
Exactly this. There won't be any suicide statistics, or unemployment statistics. Whoever replaces Saint Boris (he'll be gone by the time people talk about suicide) will no doubt hush this all up. "Suicides? What suicides? They all died of Covid, nothing to see here, next slide please."

There is such a divide in society, and I believe the wedge between people is getting larger and larger each day this goes on

This. Lockdown inequality is a real thing. I genuinely believe any lockdown enthusiast on here should be prepared to give up their homes, life savings and jobs because that is what others are being forced to do. The money could go towards the NHS. Any takers? Didn’t think so. But fine to make others do it.

I understand being scared of covid. It’s human. But people need to admit they’re being selfish by wanting a lockdown. They should admit “I’m scared of dying and am happy for others to bankrupt themselves and for children to go hungry and suffer irrevocable mental health damage, to mitigate against the minuscule risk of my death”.

It would make a refreshing change from virtue signalling about saving lives whilst turning to a blind eye to the thousands being ruined.

@Dowser that’s so sad for the guy that lost all his money.

I understand being scared of covid. It’s human. But people need to admit they’re being selfish by wanting a lockdown. They should admit “I’m scared of dying and am happy for others to bankrupt themselves and for children to go hungry and suffer irrevocable mental health damage, to mitigate against the minuscule risk of my death”

100% agree. I said pretty much this yesterday. They won't admit it though. They just come back with insults.

I understand being scared of covid. It’s human. But people need to admit they’re being selfish by wanting a lockdown. They should admit “I’m scared of dying and am happy for others to bankrupt themselves and for children to go hungry and suffer irrevocable mental health damage, to mitigate against the minuscule risk of my death"

^^ sums it up. But our politicians are pandering to it because it's what's coming up in the polls that the majority want.

Where's the voice of opposition? It's not Kier and the left which I don't understand because many of those they should be concerned about are among the worst served by this.

100% agree. I said pretty much this yesterday. They won't admit it though. They just come back with insults

Of course, because anyone who disagrees with lockdown is a selfish arsehole. Case closed. I don’t understand how this has become the public narrative.

I would love to see an honest nationwide survey on how many people want to extend lockdown past Feb. Most people I know have given up, and are taking common sense measures.

If the government really want to try this again next winter (and I’ll be fucking protesting if they do) then they need policy to address lockdown inequality properly.

@Someonetookmyname

There is such a divide in society, and I believe the wedge between people is getting larger and larger each day this goes on

This. Lockdown inequality is a real thing. I genuinely believe any lockdown enthusiast on here should be prepared to give up their homes, life savings and jobs because that is what others are being forced to do. The money could go towards the NHS. Any takers? Didn’t think so. But fine to make others do it.

I understand being scared of covid. It’s human. But people need to admit they’re being selfish by wanting a lockdown. They should admit “I’m scared of dying and am happy for others to bankrupt themselves and for children to go hungry and suffer irrevocable mental health damage, to mitigate against the minuscule risk of my death”.

It would make a refreshing change from virtue signalling about saving lives whilst turning to a blind eye to the thousands being ruined.

So bloody true! I've really had enough with the "covioiots are selfish" narrative. IMO (and in plenty of others it would seem) it's the lockdown lovers who are the selfish ones.

it's the lockdown lovers who are the selfish ones

They certainly are and they pretend they're doing it for "other people". They're actually some of the nastiest posters on this board who actually, quite clearly, don't give two fucks about other people.

Too many actuallys