Thread 2 - how long will people make these sacrifices

[DappledOliveGroves]

First thread is full.

If anyone has the willpower to continue arguing, please carry on!

I have such a problem with this constant protect the NHS narrative. The hero worship and the way we are expected to whisper in awed tones about how we must protect "our NHS" at all costs

It isn't up to me or you to save the bloody NHS. It isn't fit for purpose and hasn't been for years. It isn't right of the government to make it my problem. To place the responsibility onto me. To remove freedoms, to decimate businesses, to take education from children all under the guise of protecting the NHS. It's been forced on us and the gullible are parroting the same tired phrases to virtue signal

Spot on! I could not agree more.

It's all very well and good people screaming "SAVE THE NHS". But were they screaming "fund the NHS" a few years ago? No, they were probably too busy voting Tory 🙄

I'm glad this thread has continued, and how refreshing to see a general coming together, instead of the usual turning on one another.

It isn't up to me or you to save the bloody NHS. It isn't fit for purpose and hasn't been for years
Well said. It definitely hasn't been fit for purpose for a long, long time. I've rarely had a good experience with the NHS, and I know I'm not alone.

That's not to say it isn't a great thing to have - free healthcare, and it would be a great service if it worked properly. Would the NHS have coped with this pandemic even if it was working 'properly'? Probably not. I do think we would be in a better position if the government hadn't decimated it to bare bones like it is though. That's not on the people. That shouldn't be our burden to bear, or something we should be made to feel bad about.

Oh wow. Just placemarking to go back and read the whole thread.

I thought I was the only one who was totally fed up of it all and getting incredibly frustrated at the "comply or die" rhetoric coming from everywhere.

@Neron

I'm glad this thread has continued, and how refreshing to see a general coming together, instead of the usual turning on one another.

It isn't up to me or you to save the bloody NHS. It isn't fit for purpose and hasn't been for years
Well said. It definitely hasn't been fit for purpose for a long, long time. I've rarely had a good experience with the NHS, and I know I'm not alone.

That's not to say it isn't a great thing to have - free healthcare, and it would be a great service if it worked properly. Would the NHS have coped with this pandemic even if it was working 'properly'? Probably not. I do think we would be in a better position if the government hadn't decimated it to bare bones like it is though. That's not on the people. That shouldn't be our burden to bear, or something we should be made to feel bad about.

Agreed

This is a useful resource - www.covidfaq.co/Claim-Lockdowns-cause-more-deaths-than-they-prevent-6e0bf9073d3f4f67ab88da76a7beb16e

@Neron, I agree. And I appreciate the quality of the debate.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind and @MynephewR The principle and the promise are laudable but it is very obvious that few are prepared to pay for what they dream the NHS should be (at the rate applicable to modern medicine) in terms of tax rises, cuts to other services and so on.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

I have such a problem with this constant protect the NHS narrative. The hero worship and the way we are expected to whisper in awed tones about how we must protect "our NHS" at all costs

It isn't up to me or you to save the bloody NHS. It isn't fit for purpose and hasn't been for years. It isn't right of the government to make it my problem. To place the responsibility onto me. To remove freedoms, to decimate businesses, to take education from children all under the guise of protecting the NHS. It's been forced on us and the gullible are parroting the same tired phrases to virtue signal

I said this on the previous thread, but you have said it so much better than i did.

@lovelylittlepanda I agree that nobody seems to be prepared to pay what would be necessary for an NHS for modern times.

Clearly if it doesn't exist though, we will paying for an alternative, apart from those who obviously can't afford to which sits terribly with me.

It isn't up to me or you to save the bloody NHS. It isn't fit for purpose and hasn't been for years. It isn't right of the government to make it my problem. To place the responsibility onto me. To remove freedoms, to decimate businesses, to take education from children all under the guise of protecting the NHS. It's been forced on us and the gullible are parroting the same tired phrases to virtue signal

Sing this from the god damn rooftops.

How is that link, a useful resource? It is just a denial of things because of the statistics aren't available yet.

Take suicides for example. We don't have a clear picture of the suicides in 2020 because of the ongoing reporting delay in these types of death. The samaritans have done some good press on this: www.samaritans.org/news/samaritans-ceo-ruth-sutherland-responds-to-ons-suicide-figures-for-england-and-wales/

That doesn't mean to say suicides should be effectively dismissed like they are in that report.

[quote StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind]@lovelylittlepanda I agree that nobody seems to be prepared to pay what would be necessary for an NHS for modern times.

Clearly if it doesn't exist though, we will paying for an alternative, apart from those who obviously can't afford to which sits terribly with me. [/quote]
Yes, I think you're right.

But as a consequence of the unwillingness to face up the difference between what people say they want as an NHS and what they are prepared to pay for ... the NHS tries or is held out to be something it is not.

Masks are clearly doing fuck all. Cases have done nothing but increase since we had to wear them back in the summer. Even when they told us we had to wear them they said there wasn’t much proof but may make a minimal difference. Now people see them as some kind of panacea even though cases have skyrocketed when we’ve all been wearing them. Totally ridiculous. And the vile ableist rubbish targeted at people who can’t wear them is appalling. Over something that makes no difference. And now we’re fed a lot of shite about a “new variant” as well. All very conveniently timed to keep the masses in order

Totally agree

@lovelylittlepanda the other thing that comes to mind, is all the people who were banging pots and pans on their doorstep to 'thank' the NHS...

The same people who only months beforehand had probably voted for a party doing its utmost to run the NHS even further into the ground.

the other thing that comes to mind, is all the people who were banging pots and pans on their doorstep to 'thank' the NHS

Don't remind me 🤣 What an absolute embarrassment that was. Our house was "shamed" on the street Facebook group for not participating. Hilarious.

Yes that was all bizarre, wasn't it? And then the attempt to bring it back celebrating everybody and their dog.

Speaking of being prepared to "pay for" the NHS - the previous poster who lost her business and is now selling her house and the many in similar positions are "paying" in effect, whether they are in a position to (well off) or not. I am outraged in their behalf, and that they are supposed to just suck it up to "save our NHS". It's such BS.

"How is that link, a useful resource? It is just a denial of things because of the statistics aren't available yet."

Follow the links to the papers and statistics that back up the statements made @Neron

Speaking of being prepared to "pay for" the NHS - the previous poster who lost her business and is now selling her house and the many in similar positions are "paying" in effect, whether they are in a position to (well off) or not. I am outraged in their behalf, and that they are supposed to just suck it up to "save our NHS". It's such BS

Yep, it's awful. Can't imagine how difficult and frightening it must be. Friends of mine bought a small pub in 2019, they'd saved and saved and worked so hard for years to afford it. I think they've managed 8 weeks open and they're now broke, he attempted suicide at Christmas and they're going to have to sell everything.

Until Easter. And we've been very good at staying at home. I'm reaching my limit.

@DameFanny there are no suicide statistics yet. That is my point.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

Jeez. How awful.

What is the party line in response to circumstances like that, I wonder? Something totally circular and unempathetic like "well, at least there was an NHS to revive him" ? Or "well, there aren't LOTS more suicides than normal so it's cool".

I can tell you folks that I'm sick of being branded horrible for caring about stories like these and not just Covid.

It's usually some pathetic soundbite about resilience and/or a comparison to WW2

I know it wouldn't make any difference to the current situation, but Boris did say he was going to build 40 hospitals when he came to power. I thought at the time it was ridiculous, but, perhaps 4, at least, would be a good start? There is nothing to stop the government from generously increasing the pay of doctors and nurses and giving incentives to encourage people into the profession either (like free tuition). This would be a drop in the ocean compared to what they have forked out during the pandemic, and would be a sensible investment They could do that now, (and start building) so that at least the next time this happens we won't be in such a parlous state. They also need to massively overhaul the NHS and cut out the layers of middle management and the horrendous waste that goes on year in year out.
And as for 'saving the NHS' well, I thought it was there to save me...

supposed to just suck it up to "save our NHS
I'm one who has completely fallen through the cracks. Zilch in government support, I suppose I'm to pay my mortgage and bills with air considering I'm self employed and it's currently illegal for me to work (which in itself is ludicrous).

I resent the message that it's my fault the NHS is so bad/overwhelmed/on it's knees blah blah blah. I'll be expected to pay my tax when I am earning again, and do my bit to restore the economy, just the same as I'm expected to stay home and save the lives of those who've lived a long time and experienced a lot. I'll be spending a portion of my life to come, trying to get myself out of the mess I've been left to rot in, that I haven't caused. I'm not alone in that and I feel for people who are even more of a state than I am in.

@DameFanny How can you possibly imagine that list of data is correct? Do you honestly think the majority of the world being removed from their normal lives and shoved in front of a screen, particularly young and vulnerable people is not going to have repercussions?

Here's just one example of suicides in the US from the NYTIMES this week.

www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/us/politics/student-suicides-nevada-coronavirus.html?referringSource=articleShare

I don't understand those that keep banging on about lockdown being a removal of rights to be fought. I do however understand that people are hurting financially and emotionally. I do feel that the lock down is required and by and large proportionate. I think we all have a responsibility to each other to do what we can to slow this disease. I'd like to see more help for those impacted directly. I think it also throws the spotlight on the sort of economy we want to have. In 2008 we were told that we would diversify our economy to bolster design, manufacture and export to partner financial services, this promise was broken. Perhaps now as a time of great disruption, is a time of opportunity to make real changes in our economy and the ways that people are employed. Responsibility and opportunity should be the order of the day not "rights".