How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

@DappledOliveGroves

Excellent post. Very well said.

@DappledOliveGroves Totally agree.

@Flippy87 even if every individual stuck to the prescribed rules all the time, there would still be cases.

It has become clear that letting people in and out of the country is an infection vector. But still we see plump lipped z list women in bikinis in Dubai etc. , some extremely rich friends of friends managed a "business" trip - with all the DCs in tow, just before Christmas. Many businesses and factories are still open, care home staff still delivering personal care, schools allegedly closed more than half full.

We can make as many personal sacrifices as we like, but unless the government blocks a number of these things, and provides the financial backing to allow that to happen, infections will continue to occur, albeit at a lower rate than when more things were open.

Restrictions of personal liberties need to be proportionate and most importantly actually necessary. I believe lockdown- or what passes for lockdown- at this point is necessary, but past April once elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated then my DC is my priority.

Thank you @DappledOliveGroves Very well said.

@dappledolivegroves don't you think the very fact that transmission is invisible is precisely why so many think 'ah fuck it'. People are so distanced from the consequences of their actions. You say you don't deny science but you seem to have a distinct lack of understanding as to how a virus spreads. So once more, for those at the back and not following, viruses can only exist in a host. They don't magically fly about. They are transmitted from host to host through close contact.

The thinking is pretty much the same reason that people throw litter out of their car windows. They don't care, they will never have to pick it up and there is a clear benefit to them- not having litter in the car.

Surely we teach our children better than this. Just because an action doesn't have immediate and visible consequence doesn't mean it has none at all.

Ps the NHS has been chronically underfunded for years. Are you honestly suggesting for that reason we should let it crumble now. Out of interest what do you think the country would be like with no NHS?

In fact the NHS question stands to any of your adoring followers too.

@GetOffYourHighHorse why have you located the fictional protest outside Primark? Why are the protesters that you imagine speaking with poor English?

You are making assumptions that are nasty, really nasty.

[quote Perfect28]@dappledolivegroves don't you think the very fact that transmission is invisible is precisely why so many think 'ah fuck it'. People are so distanced from the consequences of their actions. You say you don't deny science but you seem to have a distinct lack of understanding as to how a virus spreads. So once more, for those at the back and not following, viruses can only exist in a host. They don't magically fly about. They are transmitted from host to host through close contact.

The thinking is pretty much the same reason that people throw litter out of their car windows. They don't care, they will never have to pick it up and there is a clear benefit to them- not having litter in the car.

Surely we teach our children better than this. Just because an action doesn't have immediate and visible consequence doesn't mean it has none at all.[/quote]
I am aware of how a virus spreads. Unlike you, I am past caring how many are infected, how many die. Did we have a rolling daily toll of deaths from cancer, heart attacks, strokes?

Yes, it's infectious. Yes, people die. It's a pandemic.

Around 100 million died in the Spanish flu. Yet the world kept turning, became hugely overpopulated and lo and behold, another virus has emerged, to show us just how insignificant we really are. Given we managed when the global death rate was 50 times what it is now, and the human race wasn't obliterated, then I'm sure we'll remain an overcrowded planet and continue to cause havoc to its ecosystem.

@Perfect28

Ps the NHS has been chronically underfunded for years. Are you honestly suggesting for that reason we should let it crumble now. Out of interest what do you think the country would be like with no NHS?

Get rid of the NHS and have a system like France, Australia, Switzerland or many of the other far superior systems that exist. Any political party that had that at the top of its manifesto would get my vote.

"adoring follower"? because I agreed with a post online?

Alrighty then.......

'It's a virus, we are not in control and trying to pretend otherwise just smacks of Western privilege'

'Smacks of western privilege'. Jesus, it's a pandemic. You do know that means global, right?

'The cost of lockdown cannot be justified. Denying freedom of association, destroying businesses, screwing over the youth, plunging people into poverty, driving up suicide rates, for a virus that kills around 1% of people, most of whom are elderly, is abhorrent'

'Screwing over the youth' 🙄. It isn't just that it kills the elderly, whom you think are all conveniently at an end of life stage anyway, it is the thousands of previously fit people requiring critical care. I guarantee a few weeks on a ventilator and lengthy rehab will play havoc with your mental health too.

Please watch the news occasionally.

@Flippy87

Everyone seems to always miss the point that if we actually all DID stick to the rules we wouldn’t still be in the state we’re in.

It's not that simple. Everyone I know including DH who have caught it have done so despite following the rules, mostly at work, school or hospital.

I know the following people who have caught it: two policemen, 2 nhs nurses, 5 teachers, 3 retail workers, a bus driver, a celebrant, a friends grandma who caught it in hospital.

Everyone seems to always miss the point that if we actually all DID stick to the rules we wouldn’t still be in the state we’re in

Actually, everyone I know who tested positive has caught it in hospital. They went in negative, came out positive.

"I am past caring how many are infected, how many die".

And there we have it.
Stripped back, bare bones, it's not about anything else other than you simply don't care how many die.

Cool.

@alexiscarringtoncolbydexter
Here's you.

And here's the point.

I hate the war analogy but if our grandparents can live under restrictions for 6 years, it's the least we can do to protect them

Translation: "I hate the war analogy so much that I'm going to use it to make a head-tilty point".

Perfect 28, perhaps you could answer that question by looking at the ways in which other countries provide healthcare, and see which work better (or even worse) than the NHS and why?

Dappled, your posts are all spot on. Reading them gives me hope that not everyone has completely lost their minds.

Someone said upthread (and I'm sorry I now can't remember who it was) that they were feeling slightly nostalgic for the first lockdown, even though it was hideous. This is slightly akin to the way in which people who have been literally (and I do mean literally) locked up and kept prisoner for years become so accustomed to it that they can't really cope with freedom. Their brains have been re-wired to think imprisonment is normal - and most people find solace in "normality".

There are children growing up now who will be thinking that what we are doing now is normal - and therefore weirdly desirable. This is horrendous.

@getoffyourhighhorse

These people don't watch the news. They think the mainstream media are waging a propaganda war.

There is no rationalising.

@Flippy87

Everyone seems to always miss the point that if we actually all DID stick to the rules we wouldn’t still be in the state we’re in.

They don’t miss the point, your point is bollocks and not true.

People are trying to mock those who say they will no longer comply past a certain point , asking where they'll go as everywhere is shut. Quite clearly people mean they will see friends and family in their house! I dont see how you can't understand that. But if it makes you feel better to mock as you can't face the fact that many people will start to lose the will with these restrictions then go ahead.

@tiersbeforebedtime you want me to take part in a global analysis of healthcare systems?
I have no doubt we could have a far better, and a far worse healthcare system. That's not the point.

The point, and my question was: what happens if we willfully let the NHS collapse. What then? What takes its place in the aftermath? Are we happy to have no system whilst we debate what could be a better one?

[quote Perfect28]@alexiscarringtoncolbydexter
Here's you.

And here's the point.[/quote]
No dear, YOU are the the one missing the point. If the NHS hadn't been chronically underfunded for YEARS and parts of it privatised off, then maybe we wouldnt be in such a mess now. Ive worked for the NHS, many of my friends work there- their departments were sold off to Virgin years ago who came in and slashed costs and cut staff trebling their caseloads to make a nice profit for themselves. That happened YEARS before covid.

Noone wants theNHS to collapse but if it hadn't been chronically abused as it has been we wouldnt be in this mess now.

@TwirpingBird

Is it too hard for people to apply some understanding to all situations rather than just anger and hate. It's a miserable existence to hate people for wanting to be happy. Think of yourself a year ago. Would you have seen yourself become so critical and judgemental? Would you be happy with you now? I hope not. We all need to apply some humanity to everyone's situation or we dont have a society worth saving

Exactly.

Since when is people needing basic human needs fulfilled “selfish”?

But it works both ways. Many could say I want proper lockdown and end that statement with I don't care about jobs lost, children harmed, poverty effects

Caring doesn’t really come into it for decision makers - it’s a balance between all the bad stuff

I do comply btw but the effect of numbers has waned somewhat. But that’s not unusual after this long.

I don’t agree with op’s view on I can do this (school) but not that as it does make sense. But constantly reducing life against a virus.. maybe not at a tipping point yet. Let’s hope vaccines start to kick in soon.

@madameblobby a bollocks point because...? Can you use a sound argument against it? Those ignoring the rules have some part to play in the rules still having to be enforced. No one is saying they are completely to blame, not at all, but to deny it has any effect is I'm afraid to deny basic scientific reasoning.