How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

[HazeyJaneII]

Same here @x2boys - as have most of the children with disabilities that I have worked with, or who are children of friends.
I have also had incredibly specialised cancer treatment.

[lovelylittlepanda]

@x2boys

Well my child has genetic tests to find the reason for his learning disabilities and autism *@lovelylittlepanda and it wasent something I asked for his paediatrician suggested it and when something was found both myself and my Dh were also tested to see if it had been inherited or not ,as @HazeyJanell* says this is something that comes up time and time again ,in the various rare chromosome disorder groups I'm in lots of families in America have to fight their insurance for these tests ,which we offered on the NHS

Yes, but the point is whether the NHS or an insurer sets the qualifying criteria, there are criteria. And I'm afraid, whether we like it or not, those criteria include cost.

[BritWifeinUSA]

@Madhairday

I believe any 85 year old with covid would prioritise the treatment of child or younger person if it came down to it and they were asked.

This may well be true, but you're missing the point that it's not 85 year olds taking up all the ICU beds. Their outcomes are too poor so they are not escalated to that treatment. The majority of patients in ICU are aged between 40 and 70.

I wish people would stop spouting this absolute nonsense.

The most recent data available from the NHS is for January 7, 2021. You can’t possibly know all the facts beyond this date. Even the government doesn’t. In any event, on January 7, a total of 4,751 people in England were in the ICU. Of those, 2654 were COVID patients. The rest had other illnesses or injuries.

The government and the NHS don’t even break down the age groups like that. They have the following age groups for data reporting:

0-5
6-17
18-64
65-84
85+

So there is no way of knowing how many “40 to 70” people are on ventilators or in the ICU. So don’t pretend you know that.

Of the total NHS hospital beds occupied in England on January 7, 28,246 of the 116,901 were COVID patients.

Of the total 1179 people admitted to hospital on January 6, 472 were between 18 and 64. Even if all of them were admitted to the ICU (and likely many of them were not) that’s still only 10% of all ICU patients that day. And that’s 18-64 year olds, a much broader range than your made-up 40-70 year olds.

www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

But carry on with it. It suits your narrative. Keep drinking the government Kool-Aid!

[lovelylittlepanda]

I'm sorry to hear it @VinylDetective.

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'I'm not a Covid denier either but it's really shocked me how willing people have been to give up their fundamental rights and freedoms, and the creep of state and police control over people's lives. I find that much more scary than the virus.'

🙄

Yes the pesky police having to tell idiots not to have parties in the middle of a pandemic. The cheek!

The enabling, encouraging and backslapping on this thread from the 'it's only a bit of flu!' types is quite astonishing. You're all guilty of prolonging this shite situation not Boris Johnson. Oh look a press conference where Johnson has said the new variant may be more deadly but don't let that stop your coffee mornings!

[VinylDetective]

Oh yes how lovely! They just slip away quietly in their sleep once they're at the handy end of life 90+ age.Except covid19 isnt quite like that

There are lots of ways to die that aren’t quite like that.

[Fr0thandBubble]

Yes, I wonder if you all have the same background profession as me?

I'll be crucified if I say what it is!

@lovelylittlepanda Lawyer by chance..?!

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Utterly sensible posts, Poppingnostopping and lovelylittlepanda, especially in realising that it's not about what happens when the NHS is broken but that it already is. As I've said so often (and of course there's never been a response) much of it remained shut even over the summer with cases very low, and it really is very difficult to persuade people to "protect" something which they know perfectly well won't be there for them anyway

In reality there is no "good way" out of this, but I suspect one of them's going to be that we'll have to become a lot more accepting of mortality among the very elderly and CEV - and looking at some of the views here I don't imagine that'll be easy

[Hearwego]

I don’t think people will want to put up with lockdowns much after this summer. That’s would mean almost a year and a half of restrictions due to covid.
It’s all well and good protecting the NHS, but we also need to pay for it. The public sector is paid through taxes, we need to sustain taxation.
So in a nutshell, we need bars, pubs restaurants and retail to open as soon as we can so money comes into the treasury.

[Poppingnostopping]

Except covid19 isnt quite like that and again if you watch the ICU reports on the news you'll see they're snowed under with younger people one reason for this is that the over 70/75/80's don't get put in ICU or on ventilators (or whatever the cut off is in that hospital). Medics know that this type of rationing takes place, I've talked to dr friends about it and it's just like a giant secret that older people don't do very well anyway and so they don't put them in those situations if they can help it.

I wonder what people think health economists do all day, or how the NHS decides what drugs to fund, or what QALY's are? People are not equally valuable in terms of those calculations, and decisions are made all the time that some things are too costly money-wise or don't deliver enough quality of life for the budget.

I'm happy to persist in this lockdown for another couple of months to give the NHS a chance to catch up and I'm not intending to do risky things, but I am prepared to push against the guidelines to make sure my own family is fine in terms of outdoor exercise and feeling like there's some point to life beyond 'stay at home' (even ministers don't do that!) I don't even feel bad about rethinking this, I think teaching my teens how to cope with legal regulations, guidance, weigh community needs against their own needs, these are all things to talk about in the coming months.

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'There are lots of ways to die that aren’t quite like that.'

Yes but you said covid should be viewed like pneumonia 'the old man's friend' when it causes great suffering to younger people also so no, it shouldn't be viewed as anyone's 'friend' .

[Fr0thandBubble]

@GetOffYourHighHorse I'm not a Covid denier and it's clearly a worse virus than the flu. But the fact is that there have always been viruses - many A LOT worse than Covid - and that the average age of death is 82 (above the average life expectancy), that the death rate is generally accepted to be around 1% and that a third of people who have it don't have any symptoms at all.

If it were something like Ebola, which kills 50%, I would get it. But it isn't anything like that. And it does not justify shutting down society and destroying people's livelihoods, educations and freedoms.

[VinylDetective]

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'There are lots of ways to die that aren’t quite like that.'

Yes but you said covid should be viewed like pneumonia 'the old man's friend' when it causes great suffering to younger people also so no, it shouldn't be viewed as anyone's 'friend' .

Jesus. And to think I thought this thread was a haven of sense and sanity.

[Fr0thandBubble]

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'There are lots of ways to die that aren’t quite like that.'

Yes but you said covid should be viewed like pneumonia 'the old man's friend' when it causes great suffering to younger people also so no, it shouldn't be viewed as anyone's 'friend' .

As a rule, it really doesn't - to be young and be seriously affected by Covid is extremely rare.

And we all have to die of something - Covid is not a particularly bad way to die, in the scheme of things.

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'But the fact is that there have always been viruses - many A LOT worse than Covid - and that the average age of death is 82 '

It is the massive amounts of people sadly needing critical care who aren't 82 though. You know, those ICUs that have 80 patients spread about the hospital in various pop up ICUs instead of the average 20 or so patients they usually have, where should we put these people hmm? If everyone is let out to go to school and the pub and the numbers ending up in critical care are double what they are currently struggling with now where will they be cared for? Do tell.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Thank you for that info about the ages in ICU, BritWifeinUSA - something else I wasn't aware of and definitely one to bear in mind

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'And to think I thought this thread was a haven of sense and sanity.'

Nope it's a haven of enablers, deniers, excusers and those that clearly don't watch the news with the ICU reports. Probably too many long words included. Be something funny on the other side no doubt.

[DappledOliveGroves]

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'But the fact is that there have always been viruses - many A LOT worse than Covid - and that the average age of death is 82 '

It is the massive amounts of people sadly needing critical care who aren't 82 though. You know, those ICUs that have 80 patients spread about the hospital in various pop up ICUs instead of the average 20 or so patients they usually have, where should we put these people hmm? If everyone is let out to go to school and the pub and the numbers ending up in critical care are double what they are currently struggling with now where will they be cared for? Do tell.

So what exactly are those stats? How many under 70s are ventilated? How many are on CPAP or similar? How many could be on a ward and given oxygen but the hospital has a 95 year old in that ward with various ailments and there's a lack of resource?

[HazeyJaneII]

As a rule, it really doesn't - to be young and be seriously affected by Covid is extremely rare.
And we all have to die of something - Covid is not a particularly bad way to die, in the scheme of things.
As I said earlier in the thread, ds has lifelong lung difficulties due to pneumonia, which (along with several other factors) make him more vulnerable to Covid - this is according to his Drs (who fortunately seem to be a lot more sensible than many on this thread).

[DappledOliveGroves]

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'And to think I thought this thread was a haven of sense and sanity.'

Nope it's a haven of enablers, deniers, excusers and those that clearly don't watch the news with the ICU reports. Probably too many long words included. Be something funny on the other side no doubt.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I have an Oxbridge degree, an MSc and an LLB too. Oh, and a subscription to The Times, as well as being a regular reader of other news sites.

Dismissing those who disagree with you as stupid is a very poor argument.

[TiersBeforeBedtime]

Well, I'm now back from a banned hug and shag with my non-resident partner. Also went to M&S and bought a non-essential jumper in the sale.

Basic human needs are things you need to survive. They include clothes, shelter, food and warmth

@Perfect28 you do realise, don't you, that these infernal lockdowns have deprived people of all of the above? Or do you only ever meet people who have never worried about paying their bills?

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'Sorry to burst your bubble but I have an Oxbridge degree, an MSc and an LLB too. Oh, and a subscription to The Times, as well as being a regular reader of other news sites.'

Course you do 🙄

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'Dismissing those who disagree with you as stupid is a very poor argument.'

Oh disagree but please watch the news and the icu reports so you know what you're talking about or else you look a bit ill informed that's all.

[DappledOliveGroves]

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Sorry to burst your bubble but I have an Oxbridge degree, an MSc and an LLB too. Oh, and a subscription to The Times, as well as being a regular reader of other news sites.'

Course you do 🙄

You want proof?! Christ, this makes me laugh. Why would I lie?