How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

[lovelylittlepanda]

@Fr0thandBubble, @Poppingnostopping, @TheOtherMaryBerry and others, I'm both surprised and pleased I'm not the only one whose eyes are de-scaling.

Who is speaking out for balance, though? I feel it's all so polarised. I am not a covid denier. But I disagree that it's the only thing that matters.

[Fr0thandBubble]

@lovelylittlepanda Absolutely, it's nice to come across others who feel the same - I wonder how many people secretly agree but are scared to voice their views because they get shot down and called murderers and sociopaths, as I have seen on other threads about Covid .

I'm not a Covid denier either but it's really shocked me how willing people have been to give up their fundamental rights and freedoms, and the creep of state and police control over people's lives. I find that much more scary than the virus.

[DappledOliveGroves]

@lovelylittlepanda

Also supported LD initially but the balance has tipped and my support has an end date. Emboldened by this thread, I'm calling it.

And the third way is bloody obvious. Care is rationed. Don't be shocked. It is already. If you are obese, you don't get a hip or knee replacement or IVF. If you are a smoker, you don't get a heart transplant. Alcoholic? No new liver for you I'm afraid. Have cancer or a rare disease and need medicine costing £60,000 p.a. ... sorry, nope. Child with learning difficulties needing genetic sequencing to work out the issue ... fight for it. Too expensive.

Percentage of publicly subsidised NHS capacity for covid patients who are under an age limit, weight limit and meet other criteria, the rest of publicly subsidised capacity is for other conditions. Part of the problem is bed blocking. You get X amount of state subsidised treatment, then it's somebody else's turn.

Yeah, not fair, but we already do it and the current situation is outrageous and the rapidly evaporating consent shows many are waking up to it.

This is the point and I don't know why people shy away from it (well, actually I do, looking at the reaction to Lord Sumption's comments but there we are).

Why are we admitting and treating people in their 90s, or late 80s, who often end up bed blocking for weeks at a time? Why do people in my mother's dementia care home get taken to hospital with Covid? Why can't we provide palliative care, at home, for those people?

My friend's 95 year old grandfather was admitted to hospital late November. He had previously broken a hip a year or so before. He was frail. He had significant fluid build up in his abdominal cavity. He was ill. He then caught Covid in the hospital, lingered on and finally died six weeks after admission. Why couldn't he have stayed home, with family or friends, and had access to large amounts of morphine, as people used to in the days before Shipman?

We need to stop thinking that everyone must be kept alive at all costs. It makes no sense and is something that only really has taken hold in the last 30 or so years. People used to accept when someone had had a good innings. Now I have friends who try and keep people alive at all costs.

Given the majority of those dying from Covid remain aged 80+, let's see what would happen to NHS capacity if they weren't admitted.

[Poppingnostopping]

More people I know agree with me, I think that's because lots of us have teens and so the effects on teens and their lives and their futures is very easy to see, I feel they are worse affected than myself.

I'd also say I have completely complied with lockdown so far, I'm not your type of person who has been bending the rules to suit themselves, I didn't see family indoors over Christmas on purpose due to wanting to keep them safe, and I don't intend to risk the older and more vulnerable people I know whatsoever. I can work from home the vast majority of the time and I use online shopping including for food, so I'm very much compliant.

That said, the illogicality of some of it is just too much for me. Fining people for taking a walk together, I know they took back the fines in the end as they did nothing illegal, but I don't want to live somewhere where we honestly think the police are the relevant authorities are to be called when two mid-life women take a socially distanced walk together. In terms of risk this is so low. I can't make sense of being an island nation keeping borders open, allowing businesspeople to move freely, not checking on quarantine, paying billions for a barely functioning track and trace system and then using vaccines against the manufacturer's instructions and then somehow blaming people going on a stroll together for your very high Covid rates.

I am not intending to have house parties, or take cavalier risks with unvaccinated older folk or those very vulnerable, but I am going to worry less about driving a few miles to take my children out in the fresh air for a family outing rather than staying home. Even Matt Hancock is out with other families, all in the playpark, Boris cycling about, I'm just going to relax myself and do what's best for my family right now to help preserve their mental health, and when there's been a good few million vaccinated, I'm going to be the first out of the gate to participate in normal everyday activities, depending on the risk level in my particular area (which has been quite low throughout).

[lovelylittlepanda]

[quote Fr0thandBubble]@lovelylittlepanda Absolutely, it's nice to come across others who feel the same - I wonder how many people secretly agree but are scared to voice their views because they get shot down and called murderers and sociopaths, as I have seen on other threads about Covid .

I'm not a Covid denier either but it's really shocked me how willing people have been to give up their fundamental rights and freedoms, and the creep of state and police control over people's lives. I find that much more scary than the virus.[/quote]
@Fr0thandBubble Yes, indeed. Have you read any of Jonathan Sumption's commentary? Similar line of thought to yours. He's been slammed for supposedly telling cancer patients their life is worth less (a very sound-bitey version of what he said) but he is the only one I've seen to speak out against at the"cavalier use of coercive powers" and "loss of freedom" in an intelligent way.

It feels a bit like the JK Rowling saga. Surely many agree but it's verboten to say so.

[2020BogOff]

I think we should have guidance but not lockdowns. Encourage people to minimise contacts but not make it a criminal offence to meet family and friends. Encourage WFH but not decimate industries.

The NHS didn't open up fully in the summer when rates were low so no
I don't take the view that without lockdowns people wouldn't be treated as a lot weren't in the summer. Dental care was closed as well.

And for those that want lockdown to continue what rate of death are you happy to accept? Or if anyone dies of covid should we still be told to stay at home?

[lovelylittlepanda]

@DappledOliveGroves you beat me to it on Sumption, my thread updates slowly I think.

Yes, interesting the reaction to him, isn't it? He's such a mega brain though, I have no doubt history will prove him "right".

[Fr0thandBubble]

@DappledOliveGroves I think people have become too cosseted. I find people's fear of dying to be a bit gross to be honest. And keeping people alive well beyond the point their bodies and minds are up to the job just seems wrong to me.

The fact is that we could try to keep everyone alive as long as possible but the societal cost of that (and these days, with these lockdowns, we are not just talking about monetary cost) is huge. I don't believe that someone in their 80s or 90s dying of Covid is a tragedy - it is of course sad for their family and friends but I don't think it's something that society should be trying to control at such a huge cost to everyone else.

[HazeyJaneII]

Have cancer or a rare disease and need medicine costing £60,000 p.a...sorry, nope. Child with learning difficulties needing genetic sequencing to work out the issue ... fight for it. Too expensive.

Sorry, I don't quite get your point with this bit?

[lovelylittlepanda]

@HazeyJaneII

Have cancer or a rare disease and need medicine costing £60,000 p.a...sorry, nope. Child with learning difficulties needing genetic sequencing to work out the issue ... fight for it. Too expensive.

Sorry, I don't quite get your point with this bit?

Care is already rationed.

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'Why are we admitting and treating people in their 90s, or late 80s, who often end up bed blocking for weeks at a time? Why do people in my mother's dementia care home get taken to hospital with Covid? Why can't we provide palliative care, at home, for those people?'

I would say that is a failure on the part of the care home staff, resident (if able) and family not to have discussions with regard to escalation of care well before the pandemic even happened.

But, at the risk of sounding like a broken record the people in icu aren't these disposable old folk. They are people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. People who had active lives, people who have a chance of recovery but only if there is a bed available. Again the more that flout the higher the cases, the more hospital admissions etc etc etc.

You just need to be brave, work on your coping strategies, teach your dc these coping strategies. Important life skills! And stop. Being. Selfish. If you can't help yourselves fine but stop trying to excuse it.

[HazeyJaneII]

But those things are available on the NHS, I have friends in America where they really have had to fight for genetic tests and therapies to be covered by their insurance.

[lovelylittlepanda]

[quote Fr0thandBubble]@DappledOliveGroves I think people have become too cosseted. I find people's fear of dying to be a bit gross to be honest. And keeping people alive well beyond the point their bodies and minds are up to the job just seems wrong to me.

The fact is that we could try to keep everyone alive as long as possible but the societal cost of that (and these days, with these lockdowns, we are not just talking about monetary cost) is huge. I don't believe that someone in their 80s or 90s dying of Covid is a tragedy - it is of course sad for their family and friends but I don't think it's something that society should be trying to control at such a huge cost to everyone else.[/quote]
I think this is true, but also that it's not actually the folks in their 80s and 90s who have this view, it is us cosseted younger ones.

[VinylDetective]

I think we should see covid the way we used to see pneumonia - as the old person’s friend. I’d be burnt at the stake on any other thread for saying that. I seem to have found my MN tribe.

[lovelylittlepanda]

@HazeyJaneII

But those things are available on the NHS, I have friends in America where they really have had to fight for genetic tests and therapies to be covered by their insurance.

I'm afraid not. Genome sequencing for LDs is very strictly rationed in England on cost-effectiveness grounds (because knowing the reason doesn't necessarily mean therapeutic benefit).

The point I was making is that we don't like to admit it, but health and social care is already rationed here.

[lovelylittlepanda]

@VinylDetective

I think we should see covid the way we used to see pneumonia - as the old person’s friend. I’d be burnt at the stake on any other thread for saying that. I seem to have found my MN tribe.

Yes, I wonder if you all have the same background profession as me?

I'll be crucified if I say what it is!

[DappledOliveGroves]

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Why are we admitting and treating people in their 90s, or late 80s, who often end up bed blocking for weeks at a time? Why do people in my mother's dementia care home get taken to hospital with Covid? Why can't we provide palliative care, at home, for those people?'

I would say that is a failure on the part of the care home staff, resident (if able) and family not to have discussions with regard to escalation of care well before the pandemic even happened.

But, at the risk of sounding like a broken record the people in icu aren't these disposable old folk. They are people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. People who had active lives, people who have a chance of recovery but only if there is a bed available. Again the more that flout the higher the cases, the more hospital admissions etc etc etc.

You just need to be brave, work on your coping strategies, teach your dc these coping strategies. Important life skills! And stop. Being. Selfish. If you can't help yourselves fine but stop trying to excuse it.

We have had discussions. My mother has a DNR. It still doesn't stop the automatic admission to hospital of residents who are ill, even if they don't end up in intensive care. I wish the hospitals would turn around and send them back, but they don't.

And please do realise that everyone has different points of view, that people have different breaking points and that some people are naturally selfish. It's not always a bad thing - I would imagine a lot of CEOs and highly successful people are inherently selfish. I don't dispute I'm selfish - always have been. I also don't score highly in the empathy stakes - I have much more compassion for animals than people. Nonetheless, this doesn't invalidate my viewpoint, nor elevate yours.

[Fr0thandBubble]

@lovelylittlepanda Yes I 100% agree with everything Sumption has to say on the matter. The life of a young person is, in my eyes, more valuable than that of someone in their 80s or 90s. But so many people are up in arms about what he said - it's another form of "wokeness" I think, like with JK Rowling as you mention.

"You can't put a value on anyone's life and all lives are equally worth saving" - well, actually, I disagree. And, actually, governments have been putting a value on people's lives for decades, in the form of QALYs.

[VinylDetective]

I doubt it @lovelylittlepanda. I’m just someone who saw her beloved mum hang on when her quality of life and dignity were long gone. She shared your profession ( I think) and would have agreed with us.

[x2boys]

Well my child has genetic tests to find the reason for his learning disabilities and autism @lovelylittlepanda and it wasent something I asked for his paediatrician suggested it and when something was found both myself and my Dh were also tested to see if it had been inherited or not ,as @HazeyJanell says this is something that comes up time and time again ,in the various rare chromosome disorder groups I'm in lots of families in America have to fight their insurance for these tests ,which we offered on the NHS

[lovelylittlepanda]

[quote Fr0thandBubble]@lovelylittlepanda Yes I 100% agree with everything Sumption has to say on the matter. The life of a young person is, in my eyes, more valuable than that of someone in their 80s or 90s. But so many people are up in arms about what he said - it's another form of "wokeness" I think, like with JK Rowling as you mention.

"You can't put a value on anyone's life and all lives are equally worth saving" - well, actually, I disagree. And, actually, governments have been putting a value on people's lives for decades, in the form of QALYs.[/quote]
A public figure mentioned QALYs the other day and was quickly silenced with something along the lines of "that's not suitable for public discourse".

I really don't know why not.

[Custardcream67]

I’m willing to go till spring. Maybe there will be another lockdown next winter but honestly we have to learn to live with it and accept there will be deaths just like we do the flu.

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'think we should see covid the way we used to see pneumonia - as the old person’s friend'

Oh yes how lovely! They just slip away quietly in their sleep once they're at the handy end of life 90+ age.

Except covid19 isnt quite like that and again if you watch the ICU reports on the news you'll see they're snowed under with younger people.

But yes vinyl join the other deniers in cloud cuckoo land.

[GetOffYourHighHorse]

'Yes, I wonder if you all have the same background profession as me?'

'Profession' .

[Fr0thandBubble]

@DappledOliveGroves Are you me?!!! I feel exactly the same about people v. animals!

And the fact is, people are entitled to be selfish if they want to be. Whether they want to be altruistic should be up to them as an individual - not up to the state. There is a huge difference between actually doing harm to someone (which is rightly prohibited by law) and not wanting to be legally obliged to make sacrifices for strangers.

I should be able to put the rights of myself and my family - the right to earn a living, have an education, see family and friends, etc. - first, and not have to sacrifice those things for a stranger.