How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

@tootsytoo

Simone mentioned 1800 people dying is chilling. This won't be a popular opinion but honestly I don't think out of 70 million people that is a huge amount really. Not to say the deaths aren't sad because they are, but I don't think it's a huge number, personally.

We’re it not for the virus they would still be alive. In a country of any number 1800 a day is a lot of people. If 1800 a day were dying in terrorist attack people would be up in arms demanding the government do something. Because it instead means we have to make differences to our lives people are blasé about it.

@sadpapercourtesan sorry your Dad is having to cope with so much already. My Dad too, with heart and lung failure and kidneys not right either. It's terrifying to think that he'll catch this and there are so so many others like it. And my husband is 70 this year and has had major heart surgery. I'll be sticking to the rules for as long as it takes. If my kids are happy to stay home and home school and miss their friends for the sake of others then grown ups can do the same.

@tootsytoo I’m curious, how many daily deaths would you find chilling? How many would be too many to stay open?

I genuinely find it odd. My mother, who def wouldn’t necessarily be fine if she got it, utterly despairs when she looks at my daughter and her future being sacrificed. My mother thinks it’s utterly bonkers. Why on earth should my (v small, doesn’t understand) daughter have to give up on so much to protect people like her, who’ve had a great run?

'Simone mentioned 1800 people dying is chilling. This won't be a popular opinion but honestly I don't think out of 70 million people that is a huge amount really'

Yeah only mainly older and CEV people. Who cares about them or all the 30,40,50 and 60 year olds in ICU? Do they not matter either? Hospitals that usually have 20 ICU beds now have 4 times that. Temporary beds in recovery rooms and other departments. Why tf don't these people matter to some.

Without restrictions it would be much worse. Imagine, God forbid, if one of your loved ones that some are seeing willy nilly developed a critical illness like sepsis and couldn't get an icu bed. Would you still think, 'ah well it's not too bad? I hugged them last week so that's the main thing'?!

Simone mentioned 1800 people dying is chilling. This won't be a popular opinion but honestly I don't think out of 70 million people that is a huge amount really. Not to say the deaths aren't sad because they are, but I don't think it's a huge number, personally.
I don't think you're thinking it through, personally. Even if you think it's acceptable for 1800 to die per day, at that rate the hospitals are absolutely full of many many more who need intensive treatment with limited resources. They are getting FULL.

'If my kids are happy to stay home and home school and miss their friends for the sake of others then grown ups can do the same.'

Exactly. Teach kids some selflessness. Lead by example, it's so easy to just say 'oh go and play with your pals, your mh is what matters hun' instead of explaining to them why we need to stick at it and help them develop coping strategies.

Wow. The irony of "anyone who doesnt follow the rules are selfish and dont think of how horrible the effects of covid are" comments is amazing. Do you not see that you yourself lack empathy and understanding. We are talking about people who are breaking rules to meet their grandchild, to make a living, to keep their kids functioning, to keep their parents healthy, to give themselves something to live for. I cant believe human beings now treat those people like criminals, and then proclaim themselves moral. I see the opposite. I see narrow views, and lack of empathy and humanity. Horrible

Is it too hard for people to apply some understanding to all situations rather than just anger and hate. It's a miserable existence to hate people for wanting to be happy. Think of yourself a year ago. Would you have seen yourself become so critical and judgemental? Would you be happy with you now? I hope not. We all need to apply some humanity to everyone's situation or we dont have a society worth saving

As a PP says, 'you can't do much if everything is shut'. People saying they 'won't put up with' no weddings, no meals out, no holidays, no day trips. That's all very well but if everything is shut you don't have a choice do you? Myself and my partner want to get married. We can't at the moment because it isn't allowed. We couldn't book anywhere if we wanted to!

I think once this winter is out of the way and the majority of people are vaccinated, I can't see it going on much longer. I know people say 'the virus mutates' but they can tweak the vaccine accordingly like they do with the flu one. I just don't think they will keep taking a hit to the economy to continue much longer.

I cannot believe that presumably reasonable and rational people are defending those who are very clearly covid deniers, claiming there have only been 150 deaths, the 'msm' are exagerating the situation and nevermind because my immune system is great anyway.

It's one thing to suggest that you might bend the rules in a few months because you think the balance of harm might tip and quite another to actively defend the people I describe above. They aren't breaking the rules occasionally because they feel like they need to, they are doing what the like and have been for months because they don't believe and/or don't care about the situation.

These people are dangerous. They are deniers of science and facts and their lack of compliance is one (yes one of many) factor why we are still in lockdown now.

Please don't defend their ignorance.

'is it too hard for people to apply some understanding to all situations rather than just anger and hate'

I absolutely understand. It is very tough, but it is necessary.

I dont 'hate' anyone but I cannot stand this 'I'll carry on as I like' selfish bollocks.

@twirpingbird are you honestly decrying those who are frustrated with covid denying law breakers, but completely fine with their actions? Honestly, the mind boggles! So I owe them kindness but they are entitled to do what they like? Right, OK.

'These people are dangerous. They are deniers of science and facts and their lack of compliance is one (yes one of many) factor why we are still in lockdown now.'

Yes it is so ironic. The biggest whingers are the ones perpetuating the shit situation.

@Perfect they arent having house parties. You really can't see any reason why a mother who has been locked in with a 2 year old for months and months may need some help from their mother, or why someone who had lost their livelihood and are at risk of losing their house may want their kids to see friends so they have some joy rather than worry all day. Have we fallen that far? Is covid the only thing that matters now? You dont have to have covid for it to ruin your life. I hope you have some humanity in you to see that. Please tell me you arent that cold.

Why have you interpreted the fact that I mention 1800 deaths isn't a lot that means we should end lockdown and live about our lives. Did I say that? No, I didn't.

I am also, believe it or not entitled to an opinion and my opinion is that I don't think 1800 deaths is many people at all out of 70 million.

People have lost their minds in terms of how they view mortality. The relationship we have with death is a very unhealthy one. We should accept it as part of life, people die.

Preventing NHS from destruction - that makes sense to me on the other hand.

Nutella (who moved from Spain to Sweden) - that's fascinating - don't answer if it will out you, but how was it possible just to move to Sweden like that, workwise - are you just working from home, or did you change jobs? And what about the language - are you Swedish speakers already?

Like I am not advocate for everyone to do what they want here. I just think we shouldn't be so hard lined in our judgement of other people as horrid creatures who want to kill people. It's not that straightforward. If you think it is then you are either solid stone or havent reached breaking point yet. Some people have reached breaking point. People arent evil. It's not like you are a saint because you follow rules to the letter and they are pure sin for seeing their mother. People are just doing their best but not everyones situation is as easy as others. Some compassion for every struggling is what is missing here.

'You really can't see any reason why a mother who has been locked in with a 2 year old for months and months may need some help from their mother'

Of course and that is exactly what support bubbles are for.

'People are just doing their best but not everyones situation is as easy as others. Some compassion for every struggling is what is missing here.'

Some aren't doing their best, they're doing what they like. I have compassion and empathy but it makes me sick when I'm parenting my dc and stopping them go to their pals, zooming my friends instead of coffee mornings, seeing my parents on their doorstep if at all, to hear others have just given up on any kind of restrictions because they cba and it's too hard.

@twirpingbird

I'm absolutely sure with that reply you haven't read my comment.
There are people on here who are doing exactly what they want, when they want, because they are covid deniers and do not care about the effects of their actions.
As I said, do not defend these people.

@GetOffYourHighHorse you cant bubble with a 2 year old unless it's for childcare.

I get it. I am following all the rules, actually I am going beyond the rules, and I have a 2 year old and a newborn that my family havent met. My parents are abroad. I am tired. I am miserable. I am stressed. But I am still following the rules.

However, I will never judge someone for reaching their breaking point before me, and I wonr decide they are all not doing their best. I will try to give people some benefit of the doubt. I have to try not to hate everyone. It's too consuming.

And no, people aren't evil but many people do not understand basic science.

Everyone seems to always miss the point that if we actually all DID stick to the rules we wouldn’t still be in the state we’re in.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'These people are dangerous. They are deniers of science and facts and their lack of compliance is one (yes one of many) factor why we are still in lockdown now.'

Yes it is so ironic. The biggest whingers are the ones perpetuating the shit situation.

It's nothing to do with a denial of science (well, not for me, anyway). It's simply a view that:

1. It's a virus, we are not in control and trying to pretend otherwise just smacks of Western privilege;
2. The cost of lockdown cannot be justified. Denying freedom of association, destroying businesses, screwing over the youth, plunging people into poverty, driving up suicide rates, for a virus that kills around 1% of people, most of whom are elderly, is abhorrent;
3. The slavish devotion to the NHS is misguided. The NHS needs radical reform. It can never cope at the best of times. Of course all systems are strained during a pandemic. Yet many other countries, with far superior health systems, haven't locked down in the same way we have.

I don't understand people wracking themselves with guilt that they may have spread a virus to another person. Who knows where someone has been infected? Generally you won't know who you may have spread something to, particularly if you're asymptomatic. Of the 15 + people I know who've had Covid, none of them have a clue where they caught it from. They're certainly not agitating and raging at some unidentifiable individual who did nothing more than breathe. They accept it's a virus, they accept it spreads. I won't go around stabbing people but Christ, the notion that someone has blood on their hands for spreading a virus in some way seems far too dramatic.

And lastly, the entire lock down is utterly flawed and hypocritical. You can look after key workers' children all day in a school where you work, including your grandchild who happens to go to that school. But you can't see the same grandchild in your own home as that breaks the rules, even though you've spent all day with her, albeit in a different building? You can go and work in an office or factory with numerous other individuals all day, but can't see them after work?

Go back and read @dowser's comments, or some of the OP's.