How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

Frankly I'd be up for massive riots like there were against the poll tax. I'd support a massive 'fuck you' to anyone telling me who I can and can't have into my own home and who I can and cannot hug

I'll be with you, OP. So would my teenagers.

But surely if everyone refused to comply with restrictions then the government would have little choice but to accept things.

If restaurants and gyms opened up, all shops, all venues across the country. What would happen? The police can't arrest everyone. Would they bring the army in and keep us in our houses under pain of death? I doubt it.

Look at Romania. Ceausescu was toppled by the will of millions of protesters. There has to be a tipping point at some stage.

@DappledOliveGroves

All I can say is that there are clearly a lot of people with far greater altruism than me. I cannot accept this level of sacrifice 'for the greater good' - an amorphous pool of people I don't know.

I don't care that the NHS is shot to shit - it's been bloody awful for decades. I watched my father die an agonising and painful death in their 'care' over twenty years ago when it was blindingly obvious that the healthcare system was crippled every winter.

I'm sick of people talking about those working for the NHS as 'heroes'. No-one held a gun to their head and forced them into this career.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy - no-one bats an eyelid when millions of children in developing countries die of TB or malaria.

I am so, so angry.

I completely agree with this, too. And I am also very, very angry.

Indeed @rosie1959 are people really that thick that they think massive protests and riots are in anyway helpful? Well clearly judging from some of the answers on here yes 🙄can people really not make the link of mass gatherings and increase in infections???

@DappledOliveGroves

But surely if everyone refused to comply with restrictions then the government would have little choice but to accept things.

If restaurants and gyms opened up, all shops, all venues across the country. What would happen? The police can't arrest everyone. Would they bring the army in and keep us in our houses under pain of death? I doubt it.

Look at Romania. Ceausescu was toppled by the will of millions of protesters. There has to be a tipping point at some stage.

Businesses could overturn it but what about schools?

Why would a state school do this

@DappledOliveGroves

All I can say is that there are clearly a lot of people with far greater altruism than me. I cannot accept this level of sacrifice 'for the greater good' - an amorphous pool of people I don't know.

I don't care that the NHS is shot to shit - it's been bloody awful for decades. I watched my father die an agonising and painful death in their 'care' over twenty years ago when it was blindingly obvious that the healthcare system was crippled every winter.

I'm sick of people talking about those working for the NHS as 'heroes'. No-one held a gun to their head and forced them into this career.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy - no-one bats an eyelid when millions of children in developing countries die of TB or malaria.

I am so, so angry.

I agree. Expecting to have an NHS to treat you in the first place is a huge privilege compared to many in the world.

Easter will be my tipping point. As another poster has said after that I will be seeing family in my home again.

It’s not altruism here either. As long as my parents and my family don’t get it I don’t really care. I don’t want anyone else to get it but I’m not prepared to live under indefinite restrictions to stop it. Once we’re vaccinated I’ll be seeing my family freely.

I have never agreed to any of this. I’m doing it because I don’t want a criminal record but compliance is not agreement. I retain the view the whole thing is a total shit show.

I keep on being astonished by way in which the NHS - sorry, "our" NHS (adopts the accepted expression which is a cross between reverence and sanctimoniousness) - has become the only remaining God.

In fact, it's a system like any other, and it doesn't work. It hasn't worked for goodness knows how long. It was a good idea at the time - but, like most good ideas, it has long outgrown its original remit.

If it is unable to cope with sick people - meaning that we all have to have our basic freedoms curtailed in a vicious and inhumane manner - then it ought to be comprehensively dismantled, and a different system needs to take its place.

Until the young people start to rebel in large numbers...

This. If it were just forty-something me and DP I could ‘take one for the team’ and put up with this existence (it’s not a life) for a while longer. I could sit at home and willingly sacrifice all the things I love - travel, live music and theatre, swimming, meals out - although I’d still feel terribly for the millions in these industries whose livelihoods hang in the balance.

But I’m not accepting this life for my daughter. She’s 3, at a crucial point in her development and doesn’t have years to spare; she needs socialisation and experience of the wider world if she is to learn and develop normally. Older kids need education by trained teachers, not patchy online lessons facilitated by frazzled and unqualified parents. Teens and twenty somethings need real-life contact with their peers, independence from their parents and the opportunity to branch out into the world.

Since about last April I’ve felt increasingly angry in young people’s behalf, especially the less advantaged who pre-covid were already facing massive challenges in life. ‘The vulnerable’ doesn’t just cover Covid, and doesn’t just mean the elderly and those with specific conditions. Our young are vulnerable too, just to less fashionable threats than the virus.

@DappledOliveGroves

All I can say is that there are clearly a lot of people with far greater altruism than me. I cannot accept this level of sacrifice 'for the greater good' - an amorphous pool of people I don't know.

I don't care that the NHS is shot to shit - it's been bloody awful for decades. I watched my father die an agonising and painful death in their 'care' over twenty years ago when it was blindingly obvious that the healthcare system was crippled every winter.

I'm sick of people talking about those working for the NHS as 'heroes'. No-one held a gun to their head and forced them into this career.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy - no-one bats an eyelid when millions of children in developing countries die of TB or malaria.

I am so, so angry.

I totally agree. Same position with my mum two years ago.

I agree with you completely DappledOliveGroves.

I too watched the NHS fail my late Dad over and over again, resulting in his horrible untimely death.

I'm currently watching them fail my husband.

It isn't covid though, so it doesn't matter. It's all about being "selfish" and wanting to go to the pub and coffee shops, oh and soft play.

As one of the lucky ones in that I've hardly been affected. I'll happily carry on for ever with the mild inconvenience of not being able to dance.

@DappledOliveGroves

All I can say is that there are clearly a lot of people with far greater altruism than me. I cannot accept this level of sacrifice 'for the greater good' - an amorphous pool of people I don't know.

I don't care that the NHS is shot to shit - it's been bloody awful for decades. I watched my father die an agonising and painful death in their 'care' over twenty years ago when it was blindingly obvious that the healthcare system was crippled every winter.

I'm sick of people talking about those working for the NHS as 'heroes'. No-one held a gun to their head and forced them into this career.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy - no-one bats an eyelid when millions of children in developing countries die of TB or malaria.

I am so, so angry.

Well said. I've totally had enough, I'll follow the restrictions for now but this feels endless, I need schools back, teachers need to be prioritised now, not wait until it then takes even longer to get kids back.

I'm sick to death of Hancock's drivel and as for Gavla- just fire him, why are we betting our children's futures on someone so incompetent.

can people really not make the link of mass gatherings and increase in infections???

For some of us, there are more important things than Covid. Every bloody thing has to revolve around Covid at the moment.

However, the 'fear' message has really worked, if people's only argument against protests is that they might cause more cases of Covid.

I’ve had a gutful now followed the rules not seen my family in a year. It is an existence now not living, not seeing anyone it’s lonely and depressing beyond belief. We were told mid Feb if vaccine roll out was on track which it is ...but it keeps getting extended. I don’t think we can go on like this much longer ...am so angry and fed up 😞!

@RuthW

As one of the lucky ones in that I've hardly been affected. I'll happily carry on for ever with the mild inconvenience of not being able to dance.

Not much to say to that is there. Good for you.

I have learned there is no point being angry about things that you have no control over. Yes you can mix with family friends but the rest you cannot change.
Anger is a negative emotion and just makes you feel worse
We are all fed up with restrictions but no matter how fed up I am I just have to accept it
Riots demonstrations do little good look at all the Brexit demonstrations that worked didnt it.
This virus and the lockdown is not all about
'I want ' but We

I just want to be able to go work, earn money and pay my bills.

I don't want to be on the brink of financial ruin, losing my home and my family.

Would I "sacrifice" some random person, who's existence is, to me, merely hypothetical to save me and mine? You bet your ass I would.

For me it's watching my children struggle through exam years with home schooling, and not knowing how to help them. And it's feeling trapped in a small house with all of us working at home and feeling overwhelmed and powerless. And it's seeing my lovely relatives fade away with loneliness because they can't get out and I'm in a support bubble with an ill parent so can't see anyone else. And seeing small shops closing all around us and seeing Amazon thrive because we can only shop online.

And so many other things. So I follow the rules but if it goes on for years how long can I do that - I can't honestly say

She’s 3, at a crucial point in her development and doesn’t have years to spare; she needs socialisation and experience of the wider world if she is to learn and develop normally. Older kids need education by trained teachers, not patchy online lessons facilitated by frazzled and unqualified parents. Teens and twenty somethings need real-life contact with their peers, independence from their parents and the opportunity to branch out into the world

This. It is absolutely disgraceful that young children are being deprived of so much that is far beyond just "important" for their development. This is a tiny thing, but I would always tend to smile at a small child who caught my eye (not least as they remind me of mine when they were little and sweet). I still do it automatically, but I'm invariably wearing a mask. So the child learns no social interaction whatsoever. It is just awful.

As for teenagers/young adults: my university aged child isn't allowed back to university (this is the university's decree). So they are renting an Air BnB for a month with some friends who are in the same boat, just so they can have some independence. They can do their courses online from an Air BnB just as well as from home, and they'll have one another for company.

I wholeheartedly support them in this.

@DappledOliveGroves

The way you talk about altruism - it's as if covid is something that can't happen to you and yours?

Perhaps this is why you find the restrictions hard accept?

But you must have vulnerable relatives? And also you must have some concern at least for yourself - given that otherwise heathy people can die of it? And concerns about long covid? Which wouldn't kill you but could make your life very grim?

I am not saying you should be terrified but surely you have some concerns?

I will continue with it til the people I love are no longer at risk of dying from a virus which causes them to feel like they are suffocating

I don't give a hoot about not attending meal outs or even large weddings which frankly now cost a ridiculous amount.

It's not going to be a magic switch it's going to take time and be controlled bit by bit.

No one is happy to be locked down, but at the moment ...where we are right now, what is the alternative?

Hyperbole and talk of rioting helps no one. Christ on a bike, this thread.