How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

[LApprentiSorcier]

On your premise that the vaccines won't work -

Eventually, no matter how many lockdowns there are, we will reach a point where the vast majority of people have had the virus and those who are vulnerable to it will have had their time in hospital and either come out or, sadly, have died.

We will then have to learn to live or die with the virus in whatever forms it mutates to.

[TempsPerdu]

I'm sick of the hypocrisy - no-one bats an eyelid when millions of children in developing countries die of TB or malaria

My hospital consultant neighbour is very interesting on this - she happens to be of Nigerian heritage and sees our response to Covid as symptomatic of Western privilege, our ostrich-like approach to risk and death and our arrogant belief that we can control and micro-manage everything.

She has been very exercised from the outset about the comparison between Covid here and AIDS/malaria/other transmissible illnesses elsewhere. Apparently in Nigeria and the other West African country where her parents now live Covid is called the ‘Rich Man’s Disease’, as it only affects the comparatively old and wealthy.

[2020canfuckitself]

My MIL has just died, my mum has finally been diagnosed with cancer after having her appointments continually cancelled since September. Now it's eaten away at her face.
My middle dc friend has committed suicide
My youngest dc is on the verge of a breakdown. My anxiety and depression is through the roof.

I'm not doing this anymore. I want to see my parents. I'm starting to get horrendous dark thoughts.

[atomt]

What will all you rebels do if you have a stroke or get appendicitis and there is no capacity in hospitals to treat you because they are overwhelmed with covid patients? Or are you suggesting we stop treating covid patients and leave them struggling for breath at home?

[LucilleTheVampireBat]

More than 3 million people die every year from Dehydration - but that's ok, it's in Africa

^^ this.

I wish people would stop pretending that they care about others, that they are wonderful self-sacrificing individuals who are doing all this to SAVE LIVES. They are doing it for themselves, and their own families, and then berating other people for having different feelings about what they want for their own selves and families.

[user1497207191]

@WalrusWife

Would people accept this for the next 5 years? 10 years? Forever?

How will the NHS be funded when nobody has a job to pay tax?

People would have been rioting on the streets if the govt had ignored covid and not brought in restrictions/lockdowns, etc., and just let people catch it and die, probably somewhere around half a million deaths perhaps. But it would have been over now as it would have ripped through the population. Is that a better option. People wouldn't have been happy with that either, rioting to force the govt to close pubs, close schools, etc as they saw their loved ones dying around them. There are NO easy answers to any of this. We're treading a middle-road path, imposing enough restrictions to stop it being completely out of control, but not enough to stop everyone catching it. We could tweak a few things harsher or more lenient, but ultimately, unless we want hundreds of thousands of deaths, some kind of restrictions/lockdowns are needed, and that's exactly what we have.

[DappledOliveGroves]

@Bumpsadaisie thank you for your comments. He died 21 years ago so not sure it's still anger, but perhaps.

For me I think my anger is a combination of things:

1. My family came from poverty. My father's mother died during WW2, in the slums of London, leaving behind four children (her newborn died with her). My father was the eldest of these children, aged 10. His father (my grandfather) fucked off and the children were farmed out. My father then died when I was 17. Perhaps as a result of this background I have no expectation that we are all entitled to a long and fruitful life. I guess I feel that if you have a long life with good health then that's wonderful, but certainly something one should expect or be entitled to.

1. Life is unfair. My step daughter has had cancer since 17. It's incurable. Why should she have to spend her last years shut away?

1. If I die, I die. I'll be dead. Of course it will be a tragedy for my immediate family but in the grand scheme of things it's irrelevant.

1. I have always had a personality where I won't be told what to do. I honestly cannot fathom how anyone has the right to tell me who I can and cannot see and who is allowed or not allowed in my house.

[Timeontimeoff]

@HazeyJaneII

DappledOliveGroves
Riots and civil protests can and do work. The poll tax went away. Ceasescu and other dictators have been toppled. Civil disobedience is a clear way of effecting change.
I suppose one thing that will emerge from this farce is the provision of such much sociological and psychological data about human reactions to this. Who complies, who rebels?

Horse shite - rebelling against measure that are put in place to deal with an ever changing global public health crisis, doesn't make you the freaking Rebel Alliance.
People'Not Complying' doesn't make them freedom fighters toppling dictators, it makes them dicks.

Yep 100% - there appear to be quite a substantial number of 'dicks' thinking they are freedom fighters!

[LucilleTheVampireBat]

@atomt

What will all you rebels do if you have a stroke or get appendicitis and there is no capacity in hospitals to treat you because they are overwhelmed with covid patients? Or are you suggesting we stop treating covid patients and leave them struggling for breath at home?

Oh you clever thing you, you've caught us all out there. Nobody has ever said this before.

[BornIn78]

I’m sick of the daily death numbers updates.

About 500 people a day die of heart related issues.

About 500 people a day die of cancer.

And I bet those numbers have gone right up since covid, but for some reason they’re not newsworthy - certainly on a daily basis.

[user1497207191]

@LApprentiSorcier

On your premise that the vaccines won't work -

Eventually, no matter how many lockdowns there are, we will reach a point where the vast majority of people have had the virus and those who are vulnerable to it will have had their time in hospital and either come out or, sadly, have died.

We will then have to learn to live or die with the virus in whatever forms it mutates to.

But lockdowns/restrictions control the number of people catching it and needing hospitalisation. By extending the period, it gives the NHS more opportunity to treat more people to stop them dying. If everyone caught covid at once, huge numbers of people wouldn't get any medical help at all, hence more people would die. So using restrictions/lockdowns to spread the infections over a longer period of time will save many lives simply because more people can get given medical attention.

[Bluegrass]

TempsPerdu - she sounds charming. Providing Healthcare is a sign of progress in a society. If she wants to live in constant state of pseudo-Darwinian struggle where only the most physically robust survive she is very welcome to it.

[firstimemamma]

"Over 1800 died due to Covid yesterday" no that's people who had a positive test within 28 days. We'll never know how many actually died 'due to Covid'. A certain amount of these people were going to die anyway e.g stage 4 cancer.

Pre-Covid over 50,000 people in the uk died per month. It's a very normal amount. There are millions and millions of people in this country and people do die.

[TheReluctantPhoenix]

So, for those who think it is all a ‘bit much’, what other laws do you think it is fair to do our own ‘risk assessments’ about? The inverted commas are because most people have zero knowledge of either viruses or epidemiology, so they are not making a ‘risk assessment’ merely doing what they like.

Do you think the government should ever be allowed to limit your personal freedoms?

[Timeontimeoff]

@Rosehip10

People taking about "massive riots" are keyboard warriors. What they will generally do is moan a bit more on MN and social media.

Indeed.
Eye rolling at them does at least brighten the day up though.. back to work...onwards and upwards.

[Kokeshi123]

Once the elderly, vulnerable and HCPs have had their second doses, I'm done. Can't wait.

People who are still afraid can choose to SD. Good for them, we all make our choices.

[Bitbusyattheminute]

Dh is currently quite ill with cv. Currently constantly watching to see if he gets bad enough to phone for assistance. I would quite like him not to die. I think, on balance, the dc would also quite like him not to die, even though they are missing school and their lives are ruined by ld. I think their dad dying might ruin it a bit more.

But I'm glad everyone on here has been untouched by cv or that, you know, it only affects old and ill people (dh is neither).

[secretllama]

Everyone asking what rioters hope to achieve...

I dont think people genuinley think that riots help. But riots are born from frustration, lack of anything to lose and desperation. Its an outpouring of built up feelings, that while yes have a hope for change are to show how people are feeling.

Of course there's a virus going round, but desperation and anger trumps that. At least that's what we were told with the BLM protests.

[PastaAndPizzaPlease]

Mid March for me and then I want to see my friends again.

[carolinesbaby]

Mentally I have prepared myself for lockdown of sorts until roughly Easter.
I'm not happy about it and my heart aches for my children.

Easter. No longer.

[Delatron]

Not everyone would catch COVID all at once though. Some people have natural immunity, many have had it, throw in some vaccinated population, add in seasonality..

[Fembot123]

@sadpapercourtesan

I hate this as much as anyone - but yes, I would continue to follow the guidance for as long as it was necessary to prevent unnecessary deaths and suffering.

I have an elderly father who is clinically vulnerable. He would probably die if he caught the virus. He's already survived cancer, sepsis and a heart attack. I've seen posters on MN and elsewhere refer to people like him as "on his last legs anyway" and wonder why we are bothering to make sacrifices to keep people like him alive. But to me, he's my cherished, fiercely intelligent, witty, musical, creative, endlessly loving Dad, and I would do ANYTHING to keep him alive, for however long he has. I want him to die peacefully of old age when the time comes, not alone and terrified, drowning in infected lung fluid.

It's not a great leap to extend that care and commitment to other people's loved ones as well. So I'll do whatever it takes, for however long it's necessary, and I have zero respect and zero time for anyone who bleats about the cure being worse than the disease because they can't go and sit in a coffee shop or take their toddler to soft play.

Yes because it’s a simplistic as that 😏

[Timeontimeoff]

@Bitbusyattheminute

Dh is currently quite ill with cv. Currently constantly watching to see if he gets bad enough to phone for assistance. I would quite like him not to die. I think, on balance, the dc would also quite like him not to die, even though they are missing school and their lives are ruined by ld. I think their dad dying might ruin it a bit more.

But I'm glad everyone on here has been untouched by cv or that, you know, it only affects old and ill people (dh is neither).

I hope your husband recovers fully. Please try to ignore the selfish on here. They are lucky, they aren't going through what you are. They don't work long shifts in hospitals watching people die. They merely have to restrict activities for a bit, not forever and they are struggling. Hopefully they will never have to go through what you and your children are going through.

Take care of yourself and ignore the selfish on here and other keyboard warrior shout a lot types.

[GambasPil]

It’s already starting to break down. I know many sensible people who have followed the rules throughout are starting to take calculated risks to see their family members. That is only going to increase and I agree that March is probably going to be the tipping point for many people.

[x2boys]

You can't catch heart disease or cancer @Bornin77