How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

I tend to agree with @sadpapercourtesan. It's not easy missing out on social interactions but I've already lost one dearly beloved family member, she died alone. Dying is such an important and key part of life's journey and I'm more than happy to protect people's last moments on this earth so they can die with dignity, respect and surrounded by those that love them. It's the last thing you can give a person. I also acknowledge that I'm incredibly fortunate, I have a roof over my head, food in my tummy and a fairly secure job.

*Well you knock yourself out with it love and I sincerely hope you don’t lose a loved one that you could’ve spent some time with.
You had your choice."
I did lose a loved one that I wasn't able to spend time with in the last year of his life due to restrictions. I find you telling me that it was my choice, and suggesting that it's my fault rather than the pandemic's fault pretty upsetting. I didn't want to not see him, but I felt it was right to abide by the restrictions, plus I am a rule follower by nature as was my dad and breaking the rules would have caused us both a lot of stress. And before you tell me there is an expection allowing visiting dying people, he wasn't dying, he died suddenly, unexpectedly and with no warning.

I've lurked on the AD threads, I have sometimes pondered posting as respite from people making up their own rules, or criticising others for doing perfectly legal things, or wanting lockdown to last forever. I had read posts there proclaiming that you "follow the rules, but not the 'roolz'" which I completely agree with, but it turns out you don't actually follow the rules after all, so no point me posting on there.

@TwirpingBird and @Faithtrusts yes that's exactly it. I wish more people could have this attitude.

TBH if people felt more understood and less forgotten then it might make their situation a little less bleak.

Last year was a shambles, first we had to stay in to protect the NHS then it was eat out to help out. People went on holidays again etc . If they had enforced a stricter lockdown in the first place things may have been better, it was all too wishy, washy . I personally don’t think this vaccine is going to be the miracle cure, how long will it protect people etc? I think life will have a new normal . It’s very sad for everyone 😢

I sometimes think it can't continue and I won't stand for it if it does but like everyone else, I probably would because what choice is there?

My main worry is for the kids. Months without seeing their friends or for some without seeing another child at all?!! For how long are we going to let that happen to them?!!

I hope they can get back to school soon at least. It's not the end of the world for me to have to stay at home and thankfully, my DS is in nursery but the school kids need the chance to socialise.

I wanted to add that I do completely empathise with people who haven't seen family. My dad is abroad, the borders where he lives are closed. No vaccine will be distributed there until the spring/summer. They don't have public healthcare and have very few ventilators. The government are preparing for the borders to remain closed until 2022. It will literally be years since I've seen him (I last visited in February 2020). He won't see me pregnant and he won't meet my child until they're over a year old. If he gets COVID-19 he may well die (70s), he has already shared the plans for repatriation of his body if needed.

@perfect28
Why are you so hellbent on trying to control others behaviour?.
You need to ease your foot off the pedal a bit and leave others to make their own choices.
I stayed in 4 days this week.
Did I save anyone’s lives?
course I didn’t.
I went into town yesterday. I saw the same people who have worked all through the crisis. People who have been lucky to have kept their jobs.

You foaming and frothing at the mouth on here isn’t going to alter my behaviour one iota.
You can call me all the names under the sun, I don’t get a flying feck.
I’ll lose no sleep over you.

I do however worry about the people who have lost their livelihoods, their businesses, their homes, their mental health and that of their children, who are suffering and will do for years.

I worry about people who are so stressed they don’t sleep, eat too little, eat too much, drink too much, live with abusive partners and so on..these are the people who are more likely to get sick . Stress and anxiety are well known killers.

So , do yourself a favour ,give it rest pontificating about my behaviour ., you’ll not change me.

Save your vitriol for the real culprits in all of this, the ones who say do as I say not do as I do.

I have an open door here. Anyone is welcome to come and have a sit on my sofa, a cup of tea or something stronger while they pour out their worries.

Yep, even you!

The media have started putting tentative reports out about when the 'public will accept levels of death compatible to the flu'.

At that stage I think the government will open things back up. Those that are too scared or want 100% elimination will have to decide whether to opt out of mixing/working etc.

I will be most happy to accept any level of risk as I get older for an enjoyment of life.

@nutellafortea
Wow that’s incredible.
Spain had a very harsh lockdown.
We were in the canaries so came under their jurisdiction but I think spain was even tougher.
We were repatriated back to the uk when they went into lockdown
Children weren’t allowed to go outside at all for 7 weeks.
One person per car. One in supermarket.
You did a very brave thing and I’m glad it worked out for you
Not everyone would have the guts to pull up their roots and move just like that.

@Thewiseoneincognito

Those moaning about lockdown do realise it’s a GLOBAL pandemic don’t they? There are certain pieces of information we won’t be told until they grapple with HOW to tell us.

Rioting is not the answer neither is mass rebellion because it simply spits in the face of those dealing with this VERY real virus as well as those who have lost family members to it. Some people need to grow up.

Think this is bad, try living in during the Blitz.

try living in during the Blitz

plus the word GLOBAL, capitalised for extra emphasis, even though the idea is contained within the word "pandemic"...

@RichardMarxisinnocent

*Well you knock yourself out with it love and I sincerely hope you don’t lose a loved one that you could’ve spent some time with. You had your choice." I did lose a loved one that I wasn't able to spend time with in the last year of his life due to restrictions. I find you telling me that it was my choice, and suggesting that it's my fault rather than the pandemic's fault pretty upsetting. I didn't want to not see him, but I felt it was right to abide by the restrictions, plus I am a rule follower by nature as was my dad and breaking the rules would have caused us both a lot of stress. And before you tell me there is an expection allowing visiting dying people, he wasn't dying, he died suddenly, unexpectedly and with no warning.

I've lurked on the AD threads, I have sometimes pondered posting as respite from people making up their own rules, or criticising others for doing perfectly legal things, or wanting lockdown to last forever. I had read posts there proclaiming that you "follow the rules, but not the 'roolz'" which I completely agree with, but it turns out you don't actually follow the rules after all, so no point me posting on there.

What does AD mean?

My father died alone in hospital in 2017. Before Covid. Yes people did die alone before Covid. My brother and I couldn’t get there quick enough. If I dwell on how sad that was for him I wouldn’t be able to cope. But I know the nursing staff were with him. So yes Covid isn’t unique in that respect.

I think as a generation we have forgotten that very sadly people do die. I have colleagues whose parents are bed bound, in continent, not understanding anything and yet they want them to continue living that life - but who is it for? . I wouldn’t want to live that life.

This thread only skimmed it but...
Only 151 people have died of Covid since March
The revolution is coming!
Led by mumsnetters err... Hugging the people they birthed? Or something.
We won't be locked down!! (You are)
We won't stay at home (you will)
We'll give it approximately 6 more months, round about until when most scientists and politicians have said restrictions will be eased, and then we're staying home no more!!!
Viva La Revolution, mumsnet style!!!!

Anti dementor. Dementor as in the things in Harry Potter. If you look in Chat for a thread with AD in the title that's probably the latest thread and usually has an explanation of what an AD is in it.

We ride at dawn... April to May ish. To Costa and Primark. What out sheeple

@Faithtrusts I think you've hit the nail on the head. To me it feels like we're back in some hideous time warp of March 2020 except with the benefit of hindsight.
I keep trying to stay positive about vaccines, but it's hard when people minimise the impact of doing this especially on my teenage DS.
I'm on St Johns Wort now to try and blur the impact of the next couple of months. Frankly I wish I could go to sleep and wake up in 2022.

I work in a local authority and we are responsible for a lot of the grants going out to support businesses. Daily we have business holders crying on the phone. They are losing their homes, their livelihoods etc etc. We are getting the grants out so fast. The mental impact of these lockdowns hasn’t even started yet. It’s all very well for me to say let’s keep lockdown but I’m wfh and I’m safe. I’m hopefully going to keep my job for a few more years. I would not dream of telling someone that needed to work to pay their mortgage to stay in and lose their job. I would be a hypocrite if I did that.

@RichardMarxisinnocent

Anti dementor. Dementor as in the things in Harry Potter. If you look in Chat for a thread with AD in the title that's probably the latest thread and usually has an explanation of what an AD is in it.

Ahh I see, thanks.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Not RTFT but just responding to the OP.

The NHS being overwhelmed, losing loved ones to covid or other illnesses that they weren't able to be treated for, death rates going through the roof - these are nightmare scenarios. I remember the reports from Italy early last year and how chilling they were. It's bloody scary.

But that's only one side of the scales. On the other, we have children missing out on education and the simple childhood happiness of playing with their friends. Some of them stuck with abusive families. New mums isolated, young kids missing crucial developmental experiences and not knowing their wider family. Elderly people, some with dementia, unable to see or hug family members. Businesses collapsing, cultural life confined to a computer screen. The right to see close friends and family, gone. The joyful bits of life, the things we look forward to, essentially gone (and I say that as a pretty unsociable person who enjoys walking, the one and only available activity). Christmas, weddings, funerals, birthday parties, all those things which bring us together and are rites of passage, gone or heavily curtailed. Young people unable to spread their wings and do the things we all did at their age. It's literally illegal to hug your loved ones at the moment, unless you're in the same household or some variety of bubble.

Basically what I'm saying is that at some point those scales tip. I don't know when that is, for me personally or society as a whole. I'm following the rules, I'm very cautious, I want my family to be safe and I don't want to be 'part of the problem'. But that other stuff, that is life. It cannot just be put aside indefinitely. I think the vaccine will change things a lot, and maybe sooner than we think. Pandemics don't last forever. But in the meantime, while I'm personally coping ok, I could cry when I think of how much we're asking young people to give up in particular.

This is an excellent post. I think the scales will start to tip fairly soon for most people.

Great post aspiringmatriatch

It’s already flipped for me.

With my child not in school I am both buying in childcare and letting him play with the child down the road. Parking him in front of a screen for my working hours is not happening again. The price being paid by him was too high.

'Those 'others' may one day be us. Our loved ones, not someone else's. It's a distinct lack of empathy and being completely wrapped up in short sighted, small minded, self interest.'

It's awful @Perfect28. You have put your point across so patiently but the utter selfishness of posters who could not give a rat's ass about anyone but themselves and their selfish little families is so grim to read.

It isn't just 'raggy arsed ' Johnson who has decided on restrictions y'know. It's all over Europe too.

Can't wait to see this revolution. Meet outside Primark with a placard saying 'it's not fair innit'?

This is a very tough but necessary situation. I would suggest the 'mental health' of the nation would deteriorate further if thousands more died. Anyone flouting rules is contributing to the shitness, well done.

Simone mentioned 1800 people dying is chilling. This won't be a popular opinion but honestly I don't think out of 70 million people that is a huge amount really. Not to say the deaths aren't sad because they are, but I don't think it's a huge number, personally.

'Those 'others' may one day be us. Our loved ones, not someone else's. It's a distinct lack of empathy and being completely wrapped up in short sighted, small minded, self interest.'

And that 'one day' could be tomorrow. None of us are ever more than the time it takes to find a new lump from exceptional vulnerability.

It takes quite a skill at double think to decry the predicted surge in cancer deaths in future, whilst wanting to increase the risk to those who have cancer now (unsafe, overrun hospitals) and increase their isolation at the time when it's needed most, so that you have fewer obligations.

This has been an illuminating thread

Anyone talking about this as the new normal has got to realise that it’s impossible, surely? You can’t ask people to give up their teens/twenties/whatever age they are indefinitely. Everyone has sacrificed a huge amount, but this has to end this summer at the latest. Surely people understand that? Beyond that, it’s clear that we’ve tried our best, but if it can’t be managed in that timeframe, we need to get on with things? I find it insane that people think this is possible for any longer than that.

@tootsytoo

Simone mentioned 1800 people dying is chilling. This won't be a popular opinion but honestly I don't think out of 70 million people that is a huge amount really. Not to say the deaths aren't sad because they are, but I don't think it's a huge number, personally.

It's more than one a minute

And it's only at this level because we changed the curve of increase by locking down in November, and hope for it to not get too much worse by reducing the number of new infections

Out of curiosity, what death rate should we consider serious? And what are the implication NHS of waiting until we hit it, before seeking to take pressure off?