How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

[quote luckylavender]@CorianderBee - I'm not sure about your maths. It's been 10 months and you've made it 3 years. [/quote]
My birthday was just before things got bad, 24 turned 25, I'm now about to turn 26, in a year (when I said I would be done with it) I will be about to turn 27.

I didn't make it three years, I made it three birthdays. Not the same thing.

I think people will start to rebel by the spring. It we're not allowed out more by then in visage illegal gatherings and possibly a riot or two. I think the government are taking advise from psychologists on how far the can lock us down before we kick back.

Because it's not about protecting a minority.

It's about stopping the NHS being overwhelmed which has an affect on a huge amount of people and would have far reaching affects into all areas of society.

It's not just about deaths. Far more people need hospitalising and are dangerously ill, than die. But scale that up then more die. And more grieving. And more MH issues. And more breakdown of society.

It's not about the many sacrificing for the few. We must get away from this language of sacrifice.

It's a virus and it doesn't give a damn. Can't we just get through this together, agree it's shit and try to contain it so it isn't so shit any more?

I'm out.

I can't believe people have let this go on as long as it has.

My mate is now on furlough, her husband is now unemployed and they will probably lose their house. They have 2 small children.

Not sure it was worth it. Not much has changed stats wise since March 2020. Lockdown is a waste of time if you half ass it.

[quote tootsytoo]@Perfect28 it is selfish I agree.

I also see it from a perspective of both sides.

Why should a whole society be affected for essentially a minority?

I see both sides. Don't get me wrong, I'm sticking to the rules and@Dowser does sound like a selfish covid-iot!

But there is some anger in me to know that all this for something I'm fairly confident I'd be ok from.

All this disruption for others, it's difficult sometimes when you think deeply about it.

Not saying I'm bulletproof in the same way I drive my car even though I could die I take the risk. I don't stop driving for the minority of people that might die in car accidents and I'd be pissed if someone told me otherwise!

This whole pandemic is a mind fuck to put it bluntly.[/quote]
Gee thanks
Everyone had a choice you know.

People have practically given up their lives to follow a government that has fudged about, prevaricated and in many instances did exactly what they wanted.
I drew my line in the sand...11 months ago.
Since when does that make me a criminal .

@TiersBeforeBedtime

I keep on being astonished by way in which the NHS - sorry, "our" NHS (adopts the accepted expression which is a cross between reverence and sanctimoniousness) - has become the only remaining God.

In fact, it's a system like any other, and it doesn't work. It hasn't worked for goodness knows how long. It was a good idea at the time - but, like most good ideas, it has long outgrown its original remit.

If it is unable to cope with sick people - meaning that we all have to have our basic freedoms curtailed in a vicious and inhumane manner - then it ought to be comprehensively dismantled, and a different system needs to take its place.

I couldn't agree more and my DH works for the NHS and says he agrees too!

@Shehz21
👍

@sadpapercourtesan but it’s not just affecting the old ones is it! Look at the excess deaths statistics, and one major thing you’re missing is the treatment for covid patients is affecting all the treatments for other illnesses. Something I unfortunately know first hand !

I'm actually strangely accepting of it now and bizarrely have quite nostalgic memories of the first lockdown.

We were lucky that it coincided with the start of glorious weather that carried on into summer. My DH couldn't work for a few months which was worrying (but since has been allowed) but we managed to adapt to everything else.

I loved regularly playing tennis with my DD (in a car park!) and cycling with my family and meeting friends, individually, for distanced walks. But the main thing was how it made me appreciate so much that we take for granted. I'll never forget the day restrictions were relaxed to allow you to meet in open spaces. We walked to our local park and the atmosphere was incredible plus the tennis courts had opened!

I just don't remember feeling so joyous about small things in any previous year...

@TheKeatingFive

Nobody is going to die of anything, because we were all immortal until Covid came along and spoilt things for us. Now lockdown will make sure that nobody dies at all, ever.

I’m honestly starting to suspect some posters believe this.

I'm confident that a good 50% of mumsnet users actually believe this!

@Dowser I don't get why some poster hopes you get caught by the police. How bizzare

I think the government are taking advice from psychologists on how far they can lock us down before we kick back

They are. They use the behavioural insights team (the old ‘Nudge Unit’) and behavioural scientists like Susan Michie on SAGE to manipulate public behaviour. They’re the ones responsible for all the current fear messaging (‘If you bend the rules, people will DIE!) which will then replaced by a much more reassuring message about ‘rebuilding’ or something when they want us back out there spending money again.

I also think part of the reason for the ramping up of the fear campaign over the past few weeks is that they know they only have a very limited amount of time left before public compliance fully disintegrates.

i just want it over tbh miss goin to the pub with mates family etc. at least in summer we had pubs and restaraunts open to go on fridays and saturdays after work could chill at the bar or in beer garden etc. just wish ppl would grow up stay inside and listen

It is always assumed on here that not locking down or locking down less would lead to indefinite exponential growth of covid cases and therefore everyone being ill at the same time leading to the collapse of society. This is stated as if it is fact despite there being no evidence for it.

But actually, so far as I'm aware, the majority of places which have not locked down or did so less than us still have relatively low rates of positive antibody tests. The latest credible study I read suggested that 1 in 5 in the UK have had covid (from mixture of antibody tests and modelling). There are small pockets of some countries like Manaus which have higher prevalence than that but I'm not aware that any country is significantly higher as a whole and no country has seen covid rip through their entire population. Sweden hasn't achieved herd immunity because not enough people have been infected - covid didn't spread as quickly as expected.

The UK's death rates per capita are worse than countries which didn't lockdown as much (admittedly partly due to aging population) but it suggests that keeping the country in some form of lockdown for a year hasn't helped very much.

No one knows for sure what would happen if we hadn't locked down or had had a much laxer lockdown. Maybe the new strain or our high population density etc. would make it much worse for us than anywhere else now.

But based on the evidence from around the world I think it is very reasonable to question the idea that we would see society fall apart if we hadn't locked down. We may not even have seen higher cases overall or cases may have been more spread out so easier to deal with.

And actually lockdowns have caused society to breakdown to some extent anyway. We still have electricity and water but for months we had no education, dentistry, childcare etc.; families are going hungry and losing their homes; we have destroyed millions of jobs and businesses (the government by its own admission cannot even predict the economic consequences of more lockdown); we have left people to die alone; prevented people getting married; kept families apart for months on end; damaged the mental and physical health of millions of people by locking them inside with insufficient exercise and social contact. How is this a functioning society when it doesn't meet the most basic needs of its citizens?

Unless the alternative was actually the lights going off, bodies piling up on the streets with no one to pick them up and people starving due to collapsed supply chains (which no country has seen whatever they have done), lockdowns must be worse.

We are all, every single one of us, part of a wider society. Whether we like it or not and whether we accept it or not. Even if you are completely self sufficient, living on your own land you are still affected by the environment, which itself is affected by others.

Those 'others' may one day be us. Our loved ones, not someone else's.
It's a distinct lack of empathy and being completely wrapped up in short sighted, small minded, self interest.

I've got years ahead, hopefully, to enjoy my life, I'm prepared to make sacrifices for others who may not. I hate the war analogy but if our grandparents can live under restrictions for 6 years, it's the least we can do to protect them. I think more recent generations are pretty selfish

@Ghislainedefeligonde

I think there have been so many mistakes but a big part of the problem is society’s inability to talk about, and accept death as a part of life. Lets face it, any one of us could die tomorrow from sudden illness or accident. All deaths are a tragedy, but they are also part of life. We will all die of something. However the impact of lockdown is horrendous and unnatural. The toll it’s taking on people's mental health is unreal. Our mental health services are overwhelmed now , yet no one wants to talk about that.

The impact on kids and young adults will be long lasting, not to mention the fact that they will be paying for the destroyed economy for their whole lives.
Sweden did not lock down, their deaths are no worse than ours, but they still have an economy, and a society.

We can’t just keep on locking down. We need to know when things are going to be eased off, and once a critical mass of vulnerable people have been vaccinated we need to let people live their lives again.

And finally I’ve seen lots of people die through work, generally older people often frail and with dementia. The vast majority due to pneumonia with underlying conditions being the driver for them developing this. It’s surprising how many die completely peacefully, even without having had any medications. Vast majority will drop oxygen levels, making them sleepy and then unconscious and will die within a few days. As far as modes of dying go, it’s really not a bad way to go. Certainly preferable to dying of cancer with a protracted, painful death with symptoms sometimes difficult to control

Excellent post!

[quote Shehz21]@Dowser I don't get why some poster hopes you get caught by the police. How bizzare [/quote]
They probably don’t like the fact that I’ve weighed up the risks , as have my family and decided that we are going to live our lives as normally as possible.

What I don’t get is they had the same choices.
Anyway, it’s water off a ducks back to me.

After being evacuated from Tenerife in March, with no sanitiser, no sd, no masks and over 3000 in the airport cheek by jowl with so many people I decided If I didn’t get it then, I wasn’t going to worry about it.

@dowser it became criminal when the law changed and you chose to break it.

@Shehz21 so you don't think those who break the law and put the rest of us at risk, whilst simultaneously making a mockery of all of the sacrifices that the rest of us are making, should face any consequences?
I assume you're also doing what the hell you like too.

@chessie678 are you willing to risk waiting until society potentially breaks down to that extent before you accept a lockdown? I'm not. For me, the fact that if I needed intensive care and I might not get it is more than enough.

I have been surprised at how many students have returned to their uni homes, even though this isn't supposed to be allowed. More than half my older (second and third year) classes are in their uni towns and not in their bedrooms. I think students have decided, probably rightly, that as young people they are better off living some life with a few friends in a house or in halls than sitting in with their parents. I know some have stayed in the family home and some are abroad and can't travel, but many many more have just got up and returned. I don't blame them, so many people on here were going on about bringing their children home, and for some, especially those who need the stability/have mental health issues, that's absolutely the right thing. The rest want to try and have some fun, they are 20,21 and I don't blame them, even if the 'fun' is sitting in with their housemates for the time being.

@Chessie678

It is always assumed on here that not locking down or locking down less would lead to indefinite exponential growth of covid cases and therefore everyone being ill at the same time leading to the collapse of society. This is stated as if it is fact despite there being no evidence for it.

But actually, so far as I'm aware, the majority of places which have not locked down or did so less than us still have relatively low rates of positive antibody tests. The latest credible study I read suggested that 1 in 5 in the UK have had covid (from mixture of antibody tests and modelling). There are small pockets of some countries like Manaus which have higher prevalence than that but I'm not aware that any country is significantly higher as a whole and no country has seen covid rip through their entire population. Sweden hasn't achieved herd immunity because not enough people have been infected - covid didn't spread as quickly as expected.

The UK's death rates per capita are worse than countries which didn't lockdown as much (admittedly partly due to aging population) but it suggests that keeping the country in some form of lockdown for a year hasn't helped very much.

No one knows for sure what would happen if we hadn't locked down or had had a much laxer lockdown. Maybe the new strain or our high population density etc. would make it much worse for us than anywhere else now.

But based on the evidence from around the world I think it is very reasonable to question the idea that we would see society fall apart if we hadn't locked down. We may not even have seen higher cases overall or cases may have been more spread out so easier to deal with.

And actually lockdowns have caused society to breakdown to some extent anyway. We still have electricity and water but for months we had no education, dentistry, childcare etc.; families are going hungry and losing their homes; we have destroyed millions of jobs and businesses (the government by its own admission cannot even predict the economic consequences of more lockdown); we have left people to die alone; prevented people getting married; kept families apart for months on end; damaged the mental and physical health of millions of people by locking them inside with insufficient exercise and social contact. How is this a functioning society when it doesn't meet the most basic needs of its citizens?

Unless the alternative was actually the lights going off, bodies piling up on the streets with no one to pick them up and people starving due to collapsed supply chains (which no country has seen whatever they have done), lockdowns must be worse.

Exactly I was in boots the other and got chatting to a chap. Ex nhs worker of 20 years sunk his life savings into a bistro 18 months ago in a city that moved into tier three in October. He said he’d lost everything, all his savings, was in debt. Two children. He’d had 18 weeks open last year. He said, he’d put in all safety measures as per government requirements He couldn’t do any more. He was just broken. I felt like giving him a hug.

Where’s our humanity gone.
There’s more to life than this sterile existence.
Lockdowns don’t work.

@dowser any other laws you break because they don't apply to you?

Unless the alternative was actually the lights going off
If we hadn't locked down then I think the public (in response to rising rates of illness and death) would have put huge pressure on the government to properly fund staff and resource the NHS
This goes so strongly against their long-term plans that they they chose to lock down instead

Students have broken the government rules twice, once which tried to stop them going home before a certain date in December, all my students ignored that, and now again they have come back when they weren't scheduled to do that. There must be mumsnetter parents on here who are keeping very quiet about the movement of their student children...or perhaps they don't count that as breaking lockdown! Or perhaps they just think they are adults and can do what they like!

How do you resource the nhs at short notice?

Resourcing the NHS was never an alternative to lockdown. They couldn’t even staff the nightingales.