How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

@MarshaBradyo

Fridget I think you’re right on non collapse. Overwhelmed hospitals yes but not lights out etc

Not to say it’s the way to go but I see what you mean

I don’t think it’s the way to go either. I think we lock down while we roll the vaccine out. But I’m sick of people making outlandish comments about the effect of not locking down without substantiating them.

Thanks Fridget, that is interesting about Brazil. I suppose that also makes sense given the "many people who get infected will not be very ill with it" nature of the coronavirus. You can have high numbers of people needing hospitalisation, without it necessarily meaning that you also have unmanageable shortages of essential workers.

(Although obviously with self-isolation of contacts for 14 days that would add to the staff shortages in essential industries - I am not sure if they have that isolation rule in Brazil or indeed Stockholm or Tokyo.)

@Dowser there nicely evidencing my point. . .

I worry more for my children, and that more than anything would make me want to rebel. My youngest was born during the first lockdown. She hasn’t suffered at all of course- months of staying at home with her parents and big sister, being adored and doing what babies should. But she is terrified of people, and cries hysterically if people talk to her on our walks. She saw a horse the other day (went past on one of our walks) and I’ve never seen her so terrified. Physically shaking and inconsolable. If this were to go on for years, how could they possibly expect the youngest children, who have never known any different, to adjust to normal life?

My eldest has become terrified of loud noises, and when a motorbike went past the other day she ran into the road to try and get away.

My grandparents are old and frail, and don’t have much time left. My grandad’s mental health has suffered terribly, and he is still waiting on urgent scans that were put on hold last March. As a result, he is in agony every day.

My mum has been on her own since March. My siblings and I all have high risk jobs, and she is vulnerable so no bubbling.

I can carry on indefinitely for myself, but not for those around me.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

There's a programme on tonight called "Care Homes - The Long Year Alone". BBC News have just shown a short clip of it.

An elderly woman with alzheimers being given anti psychosis medication to help ease her anxiety over lockdown. Her daughter singing to her through the living room window. The daughter has just now been allowed to physically be with her mum, because she is now dieing. The last year of her life has been stolen from her to save the NHS. How anyone could support this is beyond me. It's absolutely barbaric.

Certainly is Amend my cousin is in the same situation with her mother she has taken care of for rs and is now in a care home It’s cruel and inhumane

The last year of her life has been stolen from her to save the NHS. How anyone could support this is beyond me. It's absolutely barbaric.

I agree. It's horrendous. It's inhumane.

@DappledOliveGroves
Is is barbaric and I totally agree with you.
Mum passed away with dementia 4 years ago
Thank fucking god

@Perfect28

It's the level of arguments I just can't get over. They are so weak and simplistic.

@Fridget I wasn't referring to your response. You're right, it's not a given that would have been the outcome, but it's bizarre anyone would want to chance it?

Dismissing arguments as weak and simplistic because you don't happen to agree? That's simplistic in itself.

And the IQ divide? I would consider Lord Sumption, whose judgments and intellect I have the utmost respect for, to have an IQ which most probably exceeds the vast majority of posters on this thread, myself included. Yet he doesn't agree with lockdowns - no doubt you'll dismiss his views out of hand too.

In answer to your question OP - I can put up with a lot but not if the schools remain closed (then I am definately not on side).

[quote Perfect28]@Dowser there nicely evidencing my point. . .[/quote]
Thank you
I’m glad someone agrees with me.
It’s inhumane what has been done to families
I will never stop seeing the people I’ve birthed, their partners and my grandchildren
Never.

When and how are all you rioters gonna take back control?

'will never stop seeing the people I’ve birthed, their partners and my grandchildren Never.'

So you've said, well done you. 'People I've birthed'

@luckylavender

All this deciding how long you'll comply for - listen to yourselves, it's not your decision. And those downplaying Covid or suggesting it would be a quicker death than something else, maybe you should have a chat with Kate Garraway.

We don’t know if Kate garraways husband is in this plight because he caught it early on and it’s been proved that for many the ventilator was the wrong treatment

@GetOffYourHighHorse

And?

@GalesThisMorning

When and how are all you rioters gonna take back control?

I'm quite happy and willing to join protests against removal of our civil liberties

Indirectly the lockdown could have reduced the infections in the unlocked down bits of the UK, iyswim

Yes, I get that completely - it just doesn't chime with the shrill insistence all over MN that everyone's got to follow the rules or everything will collapse

However it's now been said that it's not a given this would be the outcome but that it's odd to chance it, which at least is interestingly different

@dappledolivegroves you are a perfect example too.. I'm dismissing the arguments because they are weak arguments. Based on fallacy, emotion and anecdotal evidence.

Well you would want to factor that risk in to decision making I suppose puzzled - theoretically you could model it! Interestingly the 'total breakdown of society' risk has not afair ever been a reason put forward by the UK government for locking down. Spring 2020 and now was very much 'protect the NHS',; then change of emphasis in summer to 'R' and various other variables.

But I don't remember the rationale as including possible breakdown of energy, food supplies, police etc. (Perhaps it did - it becomes hard to remember!)

@puzzledandpissedoff I never claimed that things would certainly be one way or the other. Such arguments are speculative and pointless. I was arguing against the idea that our services haven't been overrun even with the high infection rate we have, from someone who seemed to be missing the obvious point that if no measures were taken (lockdown included) then infection rates would be higher. Perhaps you think that is somehow a speculative claim, I think it's logical.

The speculation is the impact the higher infection rate would have, not that it would be higher. Surely we can all agree that the infection rate would be higher if no measures were taken? Or are we still arguing the obvious?

I'm at a loss to understand why people continue to roll out Sweden as some kind of shining example. That was debunked months ago:

www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2020/12/sweden-s-covid-19-failures-have-exposed-myths-lockdown-sceptics

For those who ask about why sectors of society are not collapsing, have you given any thought to the idea that lockdown actually does what it purports to do, ie break transmission chains? As it is, individual businesses keep having to close down when they are overwhelmed by it. I heard of a supermarket having to close for a weekend the other day. Schools have had to close when covid was running wild among staff so there weren't enough staff. It is happening, it's just not happening en masses.

Because lockdown.

Nobody has bothered to answer my question upthread about what the alternative is. You keep saying it's barbaric to keep people shut away in care homes, and then you bemoan making sacrifices for the vulnerable and tell us we should just all shield.

Which is it? Do you want to lock these poor people in care homes away even longer so that you can go about your normal life?

Because that really is barbaric.

@dowser

You're a selfish arse. I hope that you get caught by the police and fined accordingly. I won't go as far as saying I hope a loved one gets very sick with covid because those of us who have this experience wouldn't wish it on our enemies.

@madhairday

Thank you for explaining that in a different way. I feel like I'm going round in circles.

I think it really boils down to selfishness. I'm alright Jack. I'm happy to take the risk. I want to see my family. I don't know anyone that has it. I have private healthcare.
Me me me.

[quote Perfect28]@dowser

You're a selfish arse. I hope that you get caught by the police and fined accordingly. I won't go as far as saying I hope a loved one gets very sick with covid because those of us who have this experience wouldn't wish it on our enemies.[/quote]
Oh, I thought we were in agreement.
Must’ve misread your post

Oops.

@Perfect28 it is selfish I agree.

I also see it from a perspective of both sides.

Why should a whole society be affected for essentially a minority?

I see both sides. Don't get me wrong, I'm sticking to the rules and@Dowser does sound like a selfish covid-iot!

But there is some anger in me to know that all this for something I'm fairly confident I'd be ok from.

All this disruption for others, it's difficult sometimes when you think deeply about it.

Not saying I'm bulletproof in the same way I drive my car even though I could die I take the risk. I don't stop driving for the minority of people that might die in car accidents and I'd be pissed if someone told me otherwise!

This whole pandemic is a mind fuck to put it bluntly.

@HelloMissus

I suspect we might face a quiet rebellion as compliance crumbles. Students have already defied pleas to remain at home. They did it last lockdown, they haven’t done it this lockdown. And yes I know that certain wonderful MN children have stayed in their bedrooms knitting tea cosies for the NHS with a cheery smile, glad to zoom for the rest of their days... meanwhile the majority of students have returned.

I think a quiet rebellion has been going on since...err March?