How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

Out of interest do people really think it's acceptable for so many lives to be ruined and broken by lockdown whilst allowing people to travel into and out of the uk on holiday?

That's what has been happening until very recently.

People have died alone, businesses have crumbled, tiny sole traders who tick along paying a mortgage have been bankrupted, children and adult mental Heath is sliding, funerals have been missed, weddings cancelled, toddlers have missed exploring their world- yet the same rules that enforced all this allowed (and soon will allow again) people to fly in and out of the country.

Oh and those on 'big business' worth over a certain threshold were exempt from flight quarantine and restrictions. FFS. Lining their mates' pockets whilst ruining the little people.

[quote Perfect28]@dowser it became criminal when the law changed and you chose to break it.

@Shehz21 so you don't think those who break the law and put the rest of us at risk, whilst simultaneously making a mockery of all of the sacrifices that the rest of us are making, should face any consequences?
I assume you're also doing what the hell you like too.

@chessie678 are you willing to risk waiting until society potentially breaks down to that extent before you accept a lockdown? I'm not. For me, the fact that if I needed intensive care and I might not get it is more than enough.[/quote]
And it’s all been pretty pointless hasn’t it?
Cling to your ideals and beliefs while continuing to berate others for doing what ?
Oh yes, seeing their family.
Wow, big massive crime that!

Of course mental health doesn’t come into it does it..as long as your beliefs are upheld.

Well you knock yourself out with it love and I sincerely hope you don’t lose a loved one that you could’ve spent some time with.
You had your choice.

@Chessie678

It is always assumed on here that not locking down or locking down less would lead to indefinite exponential growth of covid cases and therefore everyone being ill at the same time leading to the collapse of society. This is stated as if it is fact despite there being no evidence for it.

But actually, so far as I'm aware, the majority of places which have not locked down or did so less than us still have relatively low rates of positive antibody tests. The latest credible study I read suggested that 1 in 5 in the UK have had covid (from mixture of antibody tests and modelling). There are small pockets of some countries like Manaus which have higher prevalence than that but I'm not aware that any country is significantly higher as a whole and no country has seen covid rip through their entire population. Sweden hasn't achieved herd immunity because not enough people have been infected - covid didn't spread as quickly as expected.

The UK's death rates per capita are worse than countries which didn't lockdown as much (admittedly partly due to aging population) but it suggests that keeping the country in some form of lockdown for a year hasn't helped very much.

No one knows for sure what would happen if we hadn't locked down or had had a much laxer lockdown. Maybe the new strain or our high population density etc. would make it much worse for us than anywhere else now.

But based on the evidence from around the world I think it is very reasonable to question the idea that we would see society fall apart if we hadn't locked down. We may not even have seen higher cases overall or cases may have been more spread out so easier to deal with.

And actually lockdowns have caused society to breakdown to some extent anyway. We still have electricity and water but for months we had no education, dentistry, childcare etc.; families are going hungry and losing their homes; we have destroyed millions of jobs and businesses (the government by its own admission cannot even predict the economic consequences of more lockdown); we have left people to die alone; prevented people getting married; kept families apart for months on end; damaged the mental and physical health of millions of people by locking them inside with insufficient exercise and social contact. How is this a functioning society when it doesn't meet the most basic needs of its citizens?

Unless the alternative was actually the lights going off, bodies piling up on the streets with no one to pick them up and people starving due to collapsed supply chains (which no country has seen whatever they have done), lockdowns must be worse.

Excellent post, thank you.

Dowser when you say lock downs don't work I presume you mean that in your opinion the price we pay for lockdown is not worth what we gain from locking down.
of course you you are perfectly free to make that judgement, problem is ...whatever we do has to be done collectively but it's very hard to see which is the lesser of the evils and so opinion is polarized, it's very difficult to find common ground between the two opposing positions.
Everything about this is very difficult for us to accept and deal with, so much of it is counterintuitive, and we have never had a situation like this to deal with before, yes there have been pandemics but they were different infectious agents and very different social technological and scientific conditions

@Chaotic45

Out of interest do people really think it's acceptable for so many lives to be ruined and broken by lockdown whilst allowing people to travel into and out of the uk on holiday?

That's what has been happening until very recently.

People have died alone, businesses have crumbled, tiny sole traders who tick along paying a mortgage have been bankrupted, children and adult mental Heath is sliding, funerals have been missed, weddings cancelled, toddlers have missed exploring their world- yet the same rules that enforced all this allowed (and soon will allow again) people to fly in and out of the country.

Oh and those on 'big business' worth over a certain threshold were exempt from flight quarantine and restrictions. FFS. Lining their mates' pockets whilst ruining the little people.

Oh yes, Robbie Williams in st barts The towie crowd in Dubai. Simon Cowell in Barbados. Do some people actually think the well off have had the same lockdown as some of us. Course they haven’t. Anyone who thins that lives in cloud cuckoo land

@Perfect28 I only wish I could see my family. Despite me being the only one being CV bordering on CEV, I would gladly hug my parents if I could today. I miss them enormously and my mental health has taken a massive hit from not seeing them at all for the last 2 years. They live in a different country 12 hrs from here. I had plans to see them last year in March and couldn't go due to the covid situation.
Some previous poster mentioned that they hopefully have their whole lives ahead and would be willing to make the sacrifice to protect the elderly for as long as it takes. I have an autoimmune disorder and have no clue as to how long I have and have lost my brother when he was 19 years old. All I want is some normality now and can understand and fully support those who want it too. Life is unpredictable and I don't want to live however little I might have left like this.
Each person's mental health and tipping point is obviously different.

@Yohoheaveho

Dowser when you say lock downs don't work I presume you mean that in your opinion the price we pay for lockdown is not worth what we gain from locking down. of course you you are perfectly free to make that judgement, problem is ...whatever we do has to be done collectively but it's very hard to see which is the lesser of the evils and so opinion is polarized, it's very difficult to find common ground between the two opposing positions. Everything about this is very difficult for us to accept and deal with, so much of it is counterintuitive, and we have never had a situation like this to deal with before, yes there have been pandemics but they were different infectious agents and very different social technological and scientific conditions

Both. As soon as any lockdown is over, there will be massive flocking and numbers will rise again.

We’ve already proved that.

@dowser you think these are my beliefs? That this is somehow my ideal? Get over yourself. What makes you a special case? Do you know what would happen if everyone took your stance, and do you just simply not care?

@Shehz21 err hello, do you not think we all want normality???

Which comparable countries have not locked down at all? I’m not aware of any, other than those whose demographics are so radically different from our own that they make any comparison meaningless.

[quote Perfect28]@Shehz21 err hello, do you not think we all want normality???[/quote]
You clearly don't.

I did not agree to make these sacrifices now. I will not agree in the future and I do not agree now.

[quote Perfect28]@dowser you think these are my beliefs? That this is somehow my ideal? Get over yourself. What makes you a special case? Do you know what would happen if everyone took your stance, and do you just simply not care?[/quote]
You do realise a good chunk of people on this thread have already admitted to not following the rules and adopting this very stance in the very near future, Easter being repeatedly mentioned as a tipping point for many or as soon as their relatives are fully vaccinated?

@Perfect28

I'm inclined to think not.

I wonder if we will end up in a kind of 'you pays your money you takes yer choice' scenario🤔
If we did I think I might stay isolated anyway just in case👀
at least for a little while, after all who knows what might happen, no one's got a🔮

@dappledolivegroves it is not an excellent post it is an ignorant one, again comparing countries with lockdowns to countries without, without considering any in-between or nuance. Does it occur to any of you that if people simply follow commonsense and scientifically based measures, then they don't have to be forced into them.

We have far too many in our population (as do other countries that have done poorly and who incidentally share similar right wing politics to ours) who have opinions such as yours, and make enforced lockdown measures inevitable because they would refuse to do the sensible thing voluntarily. It's quite literally self- perpetuating.

I think once a significant number of people are vaccinated the government lift the lockdown and the vaccinated will be so gung-ho that everyone else will be forced to either isolate or vaccinate

It's not a question of "accepting" it, everything is shut!

It's not like I'm delighted to be following guidelines but 1800 people died yesterday, I find that terrifying.

The govt are usually too late to take action so when they do lockdown you know it must be bad.

I'd like to see schools back in march and hope cafes, shops etc open in may when millions more will have been vaccinated.

I can wait until then because I don't want thousands more people to die.

Of course I want normality, but I'm also not 5 years old and believe stamping my feet and shouting 'I want things to be normal' is going to do any good whatsoever.

This is a massive problem. You think anyone who disagrees with you is somehow happy with this situation. How many times would I need to call it a shit show for you to see otherwise?

No one, I repeat, no one is having a good time right now.

[quote Shehz21]@Perfect28 I only wish I could see my family. Despite me being the only one being CV bordering on CEV, I would gladly hug my parents if I could today. I miss them enormously and my mental health has taken a massive hit from not seeing them at all for the last 2 years. They live in a different country 12 hrs from here. I had plans to see them last year in March and couldn't go due to the covid situation.
Some previous poster mentioned that they hopefully have their whole lives ahead and would be willing to make the sacrifice to protect the elderly for as long as it takes. I have an autoimmune disorder and have no clue as to how long I have and have lost my brother when he was 19 years old. All I want is some normality now and can understand and fully support those who want it too. Life is unpredictable and I don't want to live however little I might have left like this.
Each person's mental health and tipping point is obviously different.[/quote]
Exactly.
I really feel for you.
I’m glad my parents are gone and lived a relatively normal life till mum got dementia and passed away in a care home.

No raggy arsed, tousled headed , middle aged man is keeping me from my loved ones.

Everyone has a choice.
Everyone can do their own risk assessments.

I take sensible precautions. I look after my immune system.
That’s my first line of defence and we need to mix with others to boost it.

I regularly look at my towns obituaries and it’s rare there’s a death there under 65..most are in their 80s.
151 people have died since March with or of covid, who knows.
What with dodgy tests and dodgy results and the majority getting hardly any symptoms if they do get it..
Well none of this make sense.

@dowser, please. Go take a science course. GCSE level would do.

@Perfect28

Of course I want normality, but I'm also not 5 years old and believe stamping my feet and shouting 'I want things to be normal' is going to do any good whatsoever.

This is a massive problem. You think anyone who disagrees with you is somehow happy with this situation. How many times would I need to call it a shit show for you to see otherwise?

No one, I repeat, no one is having a good time right now.

Listen closely. I will not agree to have my basic civil liberties taken. If I want to hug someone outside of my household, I will.

I remember at the start of all this my Dad googled to find out how long the Spanish flu lasted. He said it was about three years.

So that's what I've expected from the start.

People had to go through this in the past, Spanish flu, plague etc.

Fingers crossed we'll manage less than three years because of the vaccine.

But if not we just have to manage the best we can until it's over.

You can only make your own risk assessment if you include absolutely everyone you will have contact with and they agree with your risk assessment.

[quote Perfect28]@dowser you think these are my beliefs? That this is somehow my ideal? Get over yourself. What makes you a special case? Do you know what would happen if everyone took your stance, and do you just simply not care?[/quote]
I’m not a special case.
I’m one of many just getting on with life.

I don’t have to get over myself. I owe you nothing and you owe me nothing.
Why should the fact I, living my life as I choose..have you practically frothing at the mouth.

It’s laughable.
You’ve made your choice and I’ve made mine.
I’m perfectly happy with it.
You, obviously not.
If you want to self flagellate yourself..carry on.