How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

@Bumpsadaisie

Plus to reiterate the point made above - if you are linked into the medical world (as I am) you will know that the very elderly and vulnerable are not being admitted to ITUs but treated palliatively. The people in ITU are those 40-70 by and large.

My relative an example - she had Downs Syndrome and didn't stand a chance once she caught Covid - due to her heart and lungs. She would never have recovered ventilation. She was managed palliatively and died last week and I hope she had a shed load of good painkillers to make her comfortable.

On paper she is someone who you would say is an "expected" death from Covid. A kind of "well it's sad but par for the course" kind of death.

But actually it is a tragedy, Down's people do live less long but she had 20 years left at least. And a more vivacious person, more attached to life and determined the make the most of it she could despite her many difficulties, I have yet to meet. She affected the lives of so many people through her work and she will be much missed and mourned.

I'm really sorry for your loss and for your relative dying too early from covid.

Lots of us don't forget that and don't dismiss the people dying. Many of us remember it is someone's nan/grandad/mum/dad/brother/sister/nephew/niece/friend/child

@Delatron

Having been in isolation on a cancer ward, if I was elderly and unlikely to survive COVID I would much rather die at home with friends and family rather than alone in hospital with overstretched nurses and the odd FaceTime call...

I think we should be able to have this discussion. Hospital is an awful place to die at the moment. Palliative care centres (like hospices) are a good idea if you’re unlikely to survive. Visitors welcome. No pressure on hospitals.

Our three local hospices severely restricted visiting during the pandemic. At some points no visitors have been allowed, at others just one designated visitor for a short time. That includes for people who are dying.

My friend's husband died of a brain tumour in August. At home, with skeleton nursing support. He should have been in a hospice but she wouldn't have seen him again as they weren't allowing visitors. I simply could not believe this, so I contacted them myself and they confirmed it. They couldn't risk an outbreak. It felt barbaric at the end when she had to nurse him herself.

[quote Honeyhoops]@Madhairday

The government have had almost a year to try to address the problems with the lack of staffing and ICU beds. We can't stay in lockdown or living with severe restrictions indefinitely to "protect the NHS".[/quote]
I'm no fan of the government and think that their austerity programme over the past 10 years has contributed shockingly towards all of this. But they were dealing with an acute situation and you cannot magic up qualified staff in such a short time even though you can beds (ahem nightingale).

I think the term 'protect the NHS' is unhelpful. (I don't think I used it, but apologies if so.) I tend to talk more in terms of stopping the overwhelm of it, in order to be able to offer treatment for all conditions. That's what lockdown is doing. It's not about cossetting an institution that the government has systematically underfunded, but about working with what we have available right now in the midst of an acute crisis in order to do the best for the long term we can.

If the NHS collapsed it would feed into plenty of other areas of society as more and more people die, not just of covid, or become more sick and disabled. It would be sheer carnage.

I think of it in terms of protecting society as a whole rather than the NHS as an institution.

*DabbledOlives Oh please. For most of last year I have read about various anti-lockdown protests taking place throughout Europe (including Spain and Italy). You're 'concern' is bordering conspiratorial bollocks.

@Chaotic45 I’m sorry about your friend’s husband.

The infrastructure may not be quite there to support this yet but I can’t see how hospital is a good place for a frail 80/90 year old. Another poster has said their relative would have died if he hadn’t taken her home and fed her.

I guess it would take too long to make changes in this area. Money diverted to hospices? We seem to be spending a fortune on things like eat out to help out and furlough. What about diverting money to end of life care.

Bumpsadasie can you be PM please. What a calming and sensible post.

'But she has just turned 2. Reasoning isnt really her strong point. She has been locked away essentially. Other humans are now something she doesnt encounter regularly. She hasn't seen her only cousin in 5 months. My family live in Ireland. My aunts have met her once. She doesnt know her family.My worry is what effect will this have on her when she is 5 and going to school'

Dc are very resilient, more so than adults it seems. They take whatever their parents tell them at face value so stop over analysing. The fact she was crying and 'shaking' because another dc said hi seems an ott reaction tbh. You didn't stand close be hissing 'keep back!' By any chance? She'll be fine going to school. A loving stable home life is more important than playdates, plus it's 3 years away! I think she'll have met up with pals by then.

I don't want to to minimise, this whole situation is of course awful but the alternative? thousands more dying or god forbid one of your loved ones not getting any emergency care they may need if full hospitals cannot admit is far, far worse.

10, maybe 11 years

@Bumpsadaisie

Kids missed more than April - June last year, it was March - September for the majority. They went off two weeks before the Spring half term. I remember as those two weeks were fine in our HS, after that it all started to go downhill. Now this term.

I imagine it's been fairly catastrophic for children who aren't as fortunate as yours (and mine) and who aren't much more reliant on school and everything it provides. I can't even begin to imagine the toll it will have taken on secondary children in examination years.

In response to the OP, personally I can cope with everything in terms of sacrifices except the lack of continuity for our children. I'm almost surprised at how inured I've become to not being able to see friends and family, go to each other's houses etc.

Public finances/ jobs/ hospitality/ other industries under threat should be a huge concern to everyone even if not directly affected right now/ over the last ten months. One person's sacrifice - meals out, weddings, theatre trips - is another person's livelihood. I think it's quite odd on Mumsnet that people are expected to risk penury 'for the greater good'. On a balance of risk factors, for example, sending kids to school on a KW place in order to keep a job while being scrupulously careful and adhering to rules in all other areas of life - not taking kids into supermarkets unnecessarily, shopping alone for example - sounds like a sensible family decision.

The stuff that's within my control? Once my parents are vaccinated we'll be meeting as we used to. A year is far too long out of their lives for keeping them at arms length. Same with my inlaws. At their age, it's not just about saving them from covid. They could equally die from a stroke or a heart attack at their ages.
The stuff I can't control, like pubs being shut, I'll have to live with. Not sure how long I'll tolerate mask wearing in the supermarket once the vulnerable are vaccinated either.

@smogsville yes my children were off from the end of March and didn't go back until September. No idea where April-June has come from.

Also agree that many, many children are not as lucky to have food, love and support.

I am absolutely fucking sick of the minimising of lockdown’s effect on children and the glib repetition of ‘kids are resilient’, as if that makes it all fine. My DD is 5. During this period of school closure, as with the previous one, she has become volatile, anxious, clingy (won’t go to the loo by herself), angry, and frightened of a range of things including fire, monsters and her toys ‘coming to life’. This is not because I’m making her anxious; I’m not in the least anxious about covid, having already had it and my first jab. She is showing these behaviours because she is lonely, confused, isolated, unhappy and missing school and her friends desperately. Her reaction isn’t due to a lack of resilience; it’s a normal reaction to the situation. I am complying with lockdown but I will not dismiss the disastrous effect it’s having on my child, and will not allow this to continue indefinitely.

Children off school for half a term from April to June 2020 and for a term from January to April 2021.

That’s not right. You must have been in a year that went back early.

Many years waited until September. So yes two out of three terms is a lot for the same group of dc each time.

[quote smogsville]@Bumpsadaisie

Kids missed more than April - June last year, it was March - September for the majority. They went off two weeks before the Spring half term. I remember as those two weeks were fine in our HS, after that it all started to go downhill. Now this term.

I imagine it's been fairly catastrophic for children who aren't as fortunate as yours (and mine) and who aren't much more reliant on school and everything it provides. I can't even begin to imagine the toll it will have taken on secondary children in examination years.

In response to the OP, personally I can cope with everything in terms of sacrifices except the lack of continuity for our children. I'm almost surprised at how inured I've become to not being able to see friends and family, go to each other's houses etc.

Public finances/ jobs/ hospitality/ other industries under threat should be a huge concern to everyone even if not directly affected right now/ over the last ten months. One person's sacrifice - meals out, weddings, theatre trips - is another person's livelihood. I think it's quite odd on Mumsnet that people are expected to risk penury 'for the greater good'. On a balance of risk factors, for example, sending kids to school on a KW place in order to keep a job while being scrupulously careful and adhering to rules in all other areas of life - not taking kids into supermarkets unnecessarily, shopping alone for example - sounds like a sensible family decision.[/quote]
Yes, you're right @smogsville. Assuming they go back after Easter 2021, most children (unless vulnerable/KWs) will have missed two terms, not 1.5.

However, in 14 years of schooling, from YR to Y13 there are 42 terms. I am sure it is really difficult for some kids, I don't doubt that for a minute, but I just don't think it is the end of the world. You're right about secondary Y11s and 13s. It must have been really really difficult.

But still I think manageable? If Covid had free reign the death rate would be 1% still - but 1% of a big number is .... a big number! We would all know people seriously ill with it, dying of it, and suffering long covid etc if there were no restrictions. This would also be traumatic for our kids. And us.

My friends mother is in isolation in a care homes. So can't have visitors snd can't access the communal areas. No hugs for a year. She would rather be dead than live in a lonely prison. My dad has COPD snd would rather shield than have his grand children carry the load for much longer.

I am absolutely fucking sick of the minimising of lockdown’s effect on children and the glib repetition of ‘kids are resilient’, as if that makes it all fine

Me too. It’s sickening.

@bookworm14

I am absolutely fucking sick of the minimising of lockdown’s effect on children and the glib repetition of ‘kids are resilient’, as if that makes it all fine. My DD is 5. During this period of school closure, as with the previous one, she has become volatile, anxious, clingy (won’t go to the loo by herself), angry, and frightened of a range of things including fire, monsters and her toys ‘coming to life’. This is not because I’m making her anxious; I’m not in the least anxious about covid, having already had it and my first jab. She is showing these behaviours because she is lonely, confused, isolated, unhappy and missing school and her friends desperately. Her reaction isn’t due to a lack of resilience; it’s a normal reaction to the situation. I am complying with lockdown but I will not dismiss the disastrous effect it’s having on my child, and will not allow this to continue indefinitely.

I don’t get the minimisation off effect on children either. It’s rare to see posts highlighting this which is odd

@bookworm14 everything that you have described is really sad . But you daughter will be ok in time. A five year old who looses their parent to Covid will never be ok.
It is also not a normal reaction , most children are not displaying behaviours like your dd.

If the NHS collapsed it would feed into plenty of other areas of society as more and more people die, not just of covid, or become more sick and disabled

I hate to say it, but if we regard the NHS in the light of preventing folk becoming sick and disabled, then looking at the % considered CEV it could be argued it's already collapsed

And let's say some were ready to lock down for years to protect it - even ignoring the issue of tax revenues, what makes anyone think that would make any difference? Does anyone seriously imagine that money would be spent on the NHS front line instead of continuing cronyism and political vanity projects?

@MarshaBradyo

Children off school for half a term from April to June 2020 and for a term from January to April 2021.

That’s not right. You must have been in a year that went back early.

Many years waited until September. So yes two out of three terms is a lot for the same group of dc each time.

You're right @MarshaBradyo - mine were KW kids so they went back a couple of days in the final half term from June to July. Most children missed two terms - Summer term 2020 and now this term (jan to easter 2021).

It is still the case that its two terms out of 42 in their whole education.

A five year old who looses their parent to Covid will never be ok.

The likelihood of this is small.

Disrupted education is a long term problem and many will not recover ground lost.

The nhs as we know it is finished anyway. The public sector cuts in the next few years will be devastating.

I hate to say it, but if we regard the NHS in the light of preventing folk becoming sick and disabled, then looking at the % considered CEV it could be argued it'salreadycollapsed

I'm not sure I understand this point?
Are you saying people are CEV is as a result of something the NHS is doing, or not doing?

[quote MyDcAreMarvel]**@bookworm14* everything that you have described is really sad . But you daughter will* be ok in time. A five year old who looses their parent to Covid will never be ok.
It is also not a normal reaction , most children are not displaying behaviours like your dd.[/quote]
You don’t know how most children are behaving. And it is an entirely normal reaction to having your life upended and being isolated from everyone except your parents for months.

Bump are your dc back in again as KW?

I can’t do that 42 terms thing. It’s just washing over the fact it’s a big deal to miss school for 2 out of three terms.

It might help if you have had more in class time as KW but no not really doing much in terms of an argument to convince.