How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

@Notanotherteenmovie1

There are people on here who are seriously mentally unwell and MNHQ should regulate posts more. Some of the things they post like this, being willing to do this indefinitely, even for years more is worrying and I don't think they are mentally sound.

@Notanotherteenmovie1

I don't think you know much about mental illness. Many of the mental health patients I work with have a better capacity to accept the situation (despite it not being what anyone wants) than some of the people raging on here.

Who has said they are willing to do this indefinitely?

It isn't indefinitely, it is until the most vulnerable are vaccinated. The govt has said they aim to vaccinate every adult by September.

So probably back to some sort of Tier system after Easter, then in the summer something more like summer 2021. Most will be vaccinated in Winter 2021 and there should not be need for serious restrictions.

So really we are talking:

• a period of March 2020-September 2021 - 18 months.
• during some of that time, restrictions in most places quite light (eg summer 2020, Eat Out to Help Out etc)
• Children off school for half a term from April to June 2020 and for a term from January to April 2021. That's right. One and a half terms hardly the total ruin of their education and development. I have two children of my own. No it's not ideal - but it is certainly not the end of the world. My children live in a warm comfortable house with two loving supportive parents who can think about them and support them, with plenty to eat and plenty do. They have hit the jackpot.

During these 18 months there have been:

• no food shortages in the shops
• No stoppage of A&E services and urgent primary care services
• for large parts of the 18 months there have been support and childcare bubbles, as well as the possibility of meeting outside and in gardens
• education has continued by and large - children have been helped to learn at home and places made in school for the vulnerable who can't learn at home
• police enforcement, absent a bit of gung ho policing from eg Derbyshire, has been light. No curfews. No confinement to home. No need to produce a bit of paper saying why you are out. No strict limits on going out

Does anyone watch the news and see what life is like in other countries? Where there are real dictatorships and you can be spirited away in the middle of the night by the secret service? Where there is insecurity of supply and you have to queue for a day to get enough for one meal? Where there is no healthcare or vaccination programme? No clean water? Where drug gangs run the show and bribery is the order of the day? No welfare safety net? Where justice is totally corrupt and whimsical?

Those are the countries where eventually there are revolutions and rightly so.

We are NOT living in that kind of country and we should thank our lucky stars for all we have.

Make do with the restrictions which enforced very light touch and are in EVERYONE's interest - for a relatively short period only.

We should be proud and chuffed to bits with the ingenuity of our scientists who have not only produced a vaccine for us but also will share it gratis with other parts of the world that need it.

I would continue to follow the guidance for as long as it was necessary to prevent unnecessary deaths and suffering

Me too. Id feel awful seeing the stats if breaking the rules. They are all someone’s loved ones.
Plus I want healthcare to be there for other things than just covid.

Humans are ‘herd’ and society reliant creatures and these continued restrictions, which dictate that everyone must miss out on seeing their loved ones at times of elation and distress, are barbaric.

Absolutely

If it gets to April and we're still in this level of lockdown then I will start being more lax with the rules.

Mainly in terms of seeing low risk friends and letting my young DD interact with other children. I just don't think it's healthy that an 18 month old could have never played with another child.

@HazeyJaneII No.

@Madhairday

The government have had almost a year to try to address the problems with the lack of staffing and ICU beds. We can't stay in lockdown or living with severe restrictions indefinitely to "protect the NHS".

Chris Whitty said to expect restrictions again next Winter so I'm guessing things will be relaxed late Spring & Summer then a third lockdown although I would think a third wave will be smaller than the current one. Then open everything up again in March 2022. Hopefully enough people would have been vaccinated for herd immunity and there'll be more effective treatments for Covid too. After this point, surely we will have to learn to live with it. That's what I'm expecting to happen anyway. 🤷‍♀️

[quote CorianderBee]@DappledOliveGroves it is being reported - quick Google shows BBC, Mail, Sky News, Guardian, Times have all covered Italian protests.

Stop saying the media is hiding things when you don't actually read online newspapers and just depend on TV news. There are limited time slots.[/quote]
I read The Times daily and don't watch television news. Everything I've searched shows lockdown protests from October 2020 in Italy - none from the weekend just gone. Yet I read elsewhere that there were protests of 30,000 people in Italy. If you do have links then I'd be grateful to read them - I can't find any.

[quote CorianderBee]@DappledOliveGroves it is being reported - quick Google shows BBC, Mail, Sky News, Guardian, Times have all covered Italian protests.

Stop saying the media is hiding things when you don't actually read online newspapers and just depend on TV news. There are limited time slots.[/quote]
The opening up of restaurants and bars and the police unable to stop them isn't being reported and for good reason, they don't want us getting the same idea. Over 30,000 establishments in Italy are defying the government and they've not shown that once.

Hm that's true actually, I apologise I made a mistake. Where are you seeing the info about the protests? Social media?

@Bumpsadaisie
Thankyou for that great post (I think you may be too sensible and measured to be here!)

The thing is the ones posting 2 years, 3 or 5 years - it's all speculation. Step away from the screen if that sort of posting upsets. They know no more than anyone else and are no authority anyway. This is just social media with speculation/guesswork and opinions.

Most of us are following guidelines and hoping that this will come to an end quickly when the vaccine roll out has been given to the older and most vulnerable members of society and hold onto that.... it will end and I cannot wait but for now I put up with the restrictions and get on with work/children/housework/rinse repeat...

@CorianderBee I have a lot of family in various parts of Italy. That's the only reason I have been kept updated because the media here won't show it.

Plus to reiterate the point made above - if you are linked into the medical world (as I am) you will know that the very elderly and vulnerable are not being admitted to ITUs but treated palliatively. The people in ITU are those 40-70 by and large.

My relative an example - she had Downs Syndrome and didn't stand a chance once she caught Covid - due to her heart and lungs. She would never have recovered ventilation. She was managed palliatively and died last week and I hope she had a shed load of good painkillers to make her comfortable.

On paper she is someone who you would say is an "expected" death from Covid. A kind of "well it's sad but par for the course" kind of death.

But actually it is a tragedy, Down's people do live less long but she had 20 years left at least. And a more vivacious person, more attached to life and determined the make the most of it she could despite her many difficulties, I have yet to meet. She affected the lives of so many people through her work and she will be much missed and mourned.

I can see the Dutch protests are reported in the Daily Express and the NY Times but not much about Italy

@Lostinacloud

That's awful. People need to start doing what is best for their own and their families mental health. Imo you can safely visit friends and family if you use common sense.

Britain will be one of the last countries to disobey because people have been so brainwashed about protecting the NHS

You could be right, but I believe a lot of of that faith went over the summer, with cases on the floor and the NHS still largely closed

It seems no coincidence that the biggest backers of lockdown are the very ones insisting that vaccines will solve everything, but while dissent's being largely controlled by assurances about them, what'll happen if they're less effective than hoped remains to be seen

Overall, though, at least all this is being talked about at last - and about time

@CorianderBee

Hm that's true actually, I apologise I made a mistake. Where are you seeing the info about the protests? Social media?

I saw videos on TikTok and Twitter over the weekend, with massive protests, yet there seems to be a media blackout. I don't know if it was exaggerated on social media - I don't know anyone in Italy who can say what happened, but assuming the protests were on the scale claimed, I find it odd/concerning that there is no mention of this in the media.

I’ve worked in a hospice and had cancer.

Why can’t we look at alternative and better ways for the elderly to die than alone in a hospital. If they are terminal. Of course pain management would be required. Hospitals aren’t the be all and end all. And they are overwhelmed! Nobody is suggesting leaving people to die in the streets just don’t write off alternatives without exploring them.

'believe any 85 year old with covid would prioritise the treatment of child or younger person if it came down to it and they were asked.'

'This may well be true, but you're missing the point that it's not 85 year olds taking up all the ICU beds. Their outcomes are too poor so they are not escalated to that treatment. The majority of patients in ICU are aged between 40 and 70.'

Exactly! Oh but on another thread posters don't want to see the grim reality of younger people in ICUs on the news as it spoils their evening viewing. Best to plan 'protests' instead fgs.

@Puzzledandpissedoff quite agree

@Honeyhoops it’s a crazy place on here at the moment! I keep saying I’m going to take a break! Then don’t..

I am complying but honestly I think it's getting to the point where more people have to accept a number of covid deaths like we do for everything else. I would happily be careful but not have lockdown. Lockdown is for those that can afford to live without financial and mental health impact.

All deaths can be painful. I have always hoped mine would be pain free but there is no guarantee. Relatives of mine have died and it's awful to be in pain from cancer for YEARS. It's awful for anyone who has lost people before 'their time' but that happens everyday for things other than covid but hey it's infectious which I think fuels the anxious even more.

I also think the NHS isn't fit for its purpose and we should have an overhaul of it. We shouldn't have to 'protect' it for over a year. The argument that if we allow it to be overwhelmed then no one else can be seen but that is happening now so what exactly are we protecting?

Until I fell over this thread I wasn’t aware how many other people are feeling the strain, now I’m starting to wonder if the government realises the strength of feeling

@Puzzledandpissedoff yes we just have to hope vaccines are the magic bullet. But come the summer regardless if they are or aren't, people's patience will be spent. Or certainly mine will.
Obviously I can't go on holiday if it's not allowed, but I will be seeing people and my teenage son definitely will - actually my patience for restrictions on him seeing his friends outside is pretty darn non existent.