Is it discrimination to ask for proof of disability?

[Morph2lcfc]

I’ve seen this said quite a few times over last few months that’s it’s discriminatory to ask for proof for mask exemption.

My son has an invisible disability (autism) and we’ve had to provide proof of disability for lots of other things in the past as I’m sure other disabled people have and I’ve never heard it being an issue until now. So for example blue badge, ride access pass for theme parks, cea card so can take a carer to cinema etc etc. Why is it suddenly an issue now? Is it just anti mask people saying this or are some people genuinely offended at being asked for proof?

The only other time previously I heard proof couldn’t he requested was in some parts of the USA but also that in those states it was illegal to impersonate a disabled person anyway so it kind of balanced out.

It’s not really an issue for us currently as my son doesn’t really go anywhere at the minute where he has to wear a mask anyway, I go shopping on my own etc but realise this isn’t always possible for everyone. I just wondered really why it’s suddenly become such a thing to not be able to ask for proof when prior to the pandemic it was an everyday thing that just happened

Surely blue badges would have hit a wall long before now if asking for proof of disability crossed an acceptable or legal barrier?

I don't think it's discrimation and would be happy to provide proof of my disability in order to access a reasonable adjustment. I expect the complaining is from people who don't have proof as they're taking the piss.

We run small businesses, and we state in signs on the front that customers must wear masks unless exempt, and that we may ask for proof of exemption or refuse entry. I’m not putting my staff at risk by letting people just claim to be exempt. I’m not aware of any legal issue in us asking for proof. I have told staff to be sympathetic/sensitive, and they know that not everybody who is exempt will actually have proof they can show, but they’re allowed to use their judgment about when to accept somebody and when to say they must put on a mask or leave.

I think it comes from a place of wanting to trust people, to not constantly ask people with disabilities to justify their conditions.

However the amount of shitty people who think it’s alright to lie and claim that they have a disability in order to get a blue badge/free entry/mask exemption means that you can’t take it on trust.

It is positive discrimination I suppose as the intent is to help. But most people would just explain/have a card etc. as the amount of nosy people who already police it already exist. So the other caveat is who is asking? The security at the front door of the supermarket, fine. The nosy people who eyeball me when I jump out the car (and then help disabled DH out of the passenger seat) not so much!

I don't think it is discrimination to ask as such, but it is discrimination to refuse to accept a legitimate exemption. Or to refuse access to someone with no mask because someone doesn't want to state in a large queue a personal reason, eg PTSD from being restrained during a rape. I am not sure someone should have to try and explain their reasons, obviously a letter would be much better like you use for theme parks and blue badge scheme, which were your examples. But no one wants to commit to a letter for masks, for theme parks you just need a diagnosis letter, not a letter stating that someone would be incapable of queuing for example. The mask thing is less straightforward.

I didn't have a disability prior to march. Now I get panic attacks.

One of my children is starting assessment for autism and I've often wondered about me. I'm told there is an 18 month waiting list for this process to start.

What are a generation of undiagnosed adults who've found that this year has taken them from managing to struggling to do?

Even if it were discrimination, and only a court could decide that, it would be argued, likely quite successfully, that the practice of requesting proof was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

@Buzzinwithbez interesting question. Maybe request a letter from your GP?

@PrivateHall - actually a lot of theme parks do insist on a letter from a medical professional explaining why queueing is difficult and don't just accept proof of disability or of DLA

The problem with that @Grooticle is that the govt itself currently says that your customers do not have to provide proof, and you would actually be in breach of the Equities Act 2010 of your customer could be bothered to make a complaint.

Personally, also having an autistic son, I'm not particularly averse to being asked if he's medically exempt, but none of the four years worth paperwork we have mentions masks. And I asked our gp for a very quick short letter statement and they refused. As did the consultant. The government has made it impossible for us to get proof of mask intolerance.

So what would you do with us?

Yes @Buzzinwithbez makes a really good point, not everybody has proof or is willing to explain the issue, and that’s why we tell our staff as they’re on the spot they can use their judgment. So somebody who walks in shouting “I’m exempt and you can’t ask me why!” Is less likely to be allowed in than somebody who says “I’m sorry, I just can’t wear a mask” when asked.

(Those were examples of customers one of our staff told me about!)

The reasons for exemption wearing a mask can be for things that don't usually entitle someone to a blue badge (and shouldn't) e.g. psychological issues, severe asthma, COPD or other breathing issue (though most people with asthma prefer a mask, some can't), or assisting a lip reader. I agree with you in principle that people should provide proof, but there isn't a process for that; initially it was clearly going to overwhelm any service if they had to do the admin to supply some official exemption, then everyone got used to it. Given that, I don't understand the logic that a security guard shouldn't even ask someone the reason for their exemption when there would be so few cases where that might be problematic (one poster had been attacked and didn't want to discuss that with anyone asking, that's the only example I've heard that seems private).

@CovidPostingName - where has the government said that we can’t ask for proof? One of our businesses has always offered free carer places to people with disabilities and we’ve always asked for proof, otherwise people take the piss.

A pie/sandwich shop near us has closed down for a week to install a hatch in the door and reconfigure their counters/fridges etc. They've finally had enough of trying to enforce the wearing of masks and social distancing in their shop. The owners are both vulnerable and were already wearing masks and had plastic screens. Far too many people were going in without masks, not waiting outside whilst their orders were prepared and not sticking to the 2 customers at a time rule (due to the shop floor area being very small). They said it was a constant battle to get customers to follow the rules and they were exhausted with it. We're not talking mums/kids or little old ladies here. We're talking builders, tradesmen, van drivers, etc., who would try to go in groups, no masks, and just be awkward for awkwardness sake about the rules. As usual, now everyone suffers, because everyone will have to wait outside. It's the only way for them to remain "legal", i.e. not discriminate, yet keep their workplace safe for the owners and their staff.

@Grooticle here:www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

Scroll down to:
"Exemption cards
If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering:

you do not routinely need to show any written evidence of this
you do not need show an exemption card
This means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering.

However, some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign."

So I could make my own exemption card anyway, and still not have to legally show it to you. The whole system is flawed. I don't object to being asked, I object to the govt making it actually impossible for me to prove. My son looks and behaves exactly like any other 12yo on the surface, and without a specific letter from a medical professional I can't prove mask intolerance, only his diagnosis. And neither of the professionals we see will give us said letter.

It doesn’t say you can’t ask / just that the person doesn’t have to provide it

I think its harder to provide proof. Eg for a blue badge or DLA there are criteria you demonstrate you meet with evidence. You give the evidence to an independent body which has a process, possibly appeals process. If someone like a supermarket then asked asks for proof of your disability to access a service the DLA letter doesnt give any details it just says the level of award and that is right. Same with a blue badge. You provide proof of having a blue badge to the parking peoole but they dont see the evidencd of why you have the badge. People dont need to know the ins and outs of my sons dusability.

But this means that showing that you claim DLA or have a blue badge doesnt mean you can or cant wear a mask. Some with ASD can and some cant, some with asthma can, some cant.
So its still trust.
I also think there will be people who havent got any proof to give particularly if its some sort of PTSD response. Mental health care is so limited they may not have seen a professional as mask wearing is a new thing.
Im know this leaves it open to people taking advantage but i cant see how people can actually provide proof either.

The reasom its discrimination is because a lot of people discriminate against people with disabilities once they know what that disability is.

Whether that is assuming a lack of capacity, being rude about it, saying things like "but you don't "look" disabled" or "but you have kids how can you be autistic".

Also, why should everyone know my private medical history when it is not relevant to them? The lanyard scheme is supposed to fix this problem, as a signal without needing to broadcast what the disability is.

I don't need a carer, I don't need help woth my shopping, I don't need assistance to live my life day to day

But I do need to shop without a mask.

How is it acceptable that I be required to show evidence of my diagnosis to every single person who challenges me? Other shoppers? Its open to abuse which is why its not allowed.

If you had to answer questions to everyone in the street about your bowel movements over the past 24 hours would you be happy to do so? Or about what you ate for breakfast? What if you knew that if you told everyone that you ate cocopops there would be about a 50% chance that they would discriminate against you, assume you were unable to function in society and in some cases verbally abuse you. Would you be happy to tell people you ate cocopops or would you be more likely to only tell people who it was actually relevant to.

Just in case that was a response to my earlier post, I was just demonstrating that - as a principle - there is president for asking for proof of disability that doesn't constitute discrimination.

Obviously, it's not really a process that could be modelled for masks and this pandemic.

@Grooticle
From Government website www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

'Exemption cards
If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering:

you do not routinely need to show any written evidence of this
you do not need show an exemption card
This means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering.

However, some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

Carrying an exemption card or badge is a personal choice and is not required by law.'

I agree with previous poster it is awful that people are being stopped walking into supermarkets being quizzed about their reason for not wearing a mask by security and feeling they either explain something very personal to some random person in the middle of Morrison's or turn around and leave!

The way to avoid claims of discrimination is to treat everyone the same. That's why some shops have serving hatches, some have closed for the duration, some will provide a delivery service, some serve by opening the door a few inches. "Contactless" serving is now very common, and the rabid mask avoiders (The ones who take the piss and could wear one if they wanted) are part of the reason for that.

The problem is there is no actual proof of exemption. Medical exemption letters are not being issued. Although some people may have things that state a diagnosis of autism ( for example) you will still get people saying that doesn't mean you cannot wear a mask so people could still end up being refused entry. The government has decided that letters will not be issued so people who are irritated by this need to 'vent' in that direction and not at people who don't have proof.

Members of the general public should never be asking others for proof. They don't have this right with checking blue badges either. Nor should they expect others to walk around labelled either to make them feel better (for some reason) either. If they don't trust the shop to check on entry then go to a safer shop.

Ok, that’s guidance not legislation, so it doesn’t override my legal obligations to protect my staff.

As I said, we’ve told staff to be sensitive and polite about how they ask people.

But asking people if they can wear a mask, if it is discrimination, is a reasonable and proportionate type of discrimination to achieve a legitimate goal, ie protecting the health of staff and all other customers.

Tbh if somebody wants to bring an equality act claim I’ll take my chances on that, rather than putting my staff at risk.

I appreciate the difficulties people are having - and definitely this is something the government has made hard for everybody to handle.

But there’s no legislation as far as I can see that says we can’t ask for proof/explanation.

“FourTeaFallOut

Just in case that was a response to my earlier post, I was just demonstrating that - as a principle - there is president for asking for proof of disability that doesn't constitute discrimination.

Obviously, it's not really a process that could be modelled for masks and this pandemic.“

No I’ve not seen your earlier post, it was prompted as I’d read an article about someone being kicked off of Sainsbury’s by the police and threatening court action at the time of being kicked on.

Grooticle - aa the motivation is to protect your staff which is laudible - is there another way you can deliver the service to non mask wearers? As even if they are expempt there is still a risk.