Is it discrimination to ask for proof of disability?

[Morph2lcfc]

I’ve seen this said quite a few times over last few months that’s it’s discriminatory to ask for proof for mask exemption.

My son has an invisible disability (autism) and we’ve had to provide proof of disability for lots of other things in the past as I’m sure other disabled people have and I’ve never heard it being an issue until now. So for example blue badge, ride access pass for theme parks, cea card so can take a carer to cinema etc etc. Why is it suddenly an issue now? Is it just anti mask people saying this or are some people genuinely offended at being asked for proof?

The only other time previously I heard proof couldn’t he requested was in some parts of the USA but also that in those states it was illegal to impersonate a disabled person anyway so it kind of balanced out.

It’s not really an issue for us currently as my son doesn’t really go anywhere at the minute where he has to wear a mask anyway, I go shopping on my own etc but realise this isn’t always possible for everyone. I just wondered really why it’s suddenly become such a thing to not be able to ask for proof when prior to the pandemic it was an everyday thing that just happened

@FatCatThinCat

I don't think it's discrimation and would be happy to provide proof of my disability in order to access a reasonable adjustment. I expect the complaining is from people who don't have proof as they're taking the piss.

I suspect that you are not actually disabled at all and just being goady. Because if you were disabled, you would know that many, many forms of disability do not manifest in ways that provide people with evidence of disability. Effectively, only PIP and/or a Blue Badge provide such evidence; and for a variety of reasons, including deliberate gate-keeping to prevent people accessing the support they need, many disabled people are refused these. Others don't want or need to apply for them. And not all disabilities would qualify them. There is therefore to correlation between having an exemption and having evidence of disability.

To illustrate my point - I actually have got evidence of disability. I have severe arthritis and receive PIP and have a blue badge. So should I wish to pop to the supermarket, I have "evidence" that I am exempt. Except my arthritis isn't the reason I am exempt. In fact until last April, I did not even know that I had an issue with masks. Why would I - the only time I have ever worn "masks" was in connection with my previous employment, and they were gas masks that I had to wear. Putting on a mask triggered PTSD that I didn't even know about - to the extent that I have an extreme panic attack and faint from hyperventilation. I have absolutely no evidence of this. Unless you count having to pick me up off the floor and provide medical assistance.

TBH, my arthritis is so bad that shopping was hard even before Covid, so I have been using deliveries for some years now. But if it comes to a point where I need to go shopping without a mask I will, and evidence or not I will not be providing any. I am exempt. End of story.

It's funny, but before March 2020, I could have my shopping delivered every day of the week if I wanted. Now I can only get a delivery once a week. The reason for that is because of all the able-bodied people who can wear masks who can't be arsed to go to the supermarket and get their food, even though they could go whenever they want and daily if they want. But I never see people with disabilities complaining about how the non-disabled are "getting in our way" when it comes to services.

[quote movingonup20]@Buzzinwithbez

Autism is a very broad diagnosis, from those with severe learning disabilities unable to function independently at all requiring lifelong care to those who marry, have children and hold very important jobs. Mask wearing is possible for many people with autism, my dd loves wearing hers (she's a young adult) and an older friend with autism (he's mid 50's) also wears one without issue. My Dp's dd has severe learning disabilities including maybe autism (not possible to assess due to other disabilities) and wears her teletubbies masks all the time, loves them - she will randomly take it off in a shop but we just calmly tell her to put it back on and 95% of the time she does. Please don't get anxious about masks[/quote]
Indeed. The child that will be assessed of they agree to it likes masks so that they don't have to worry about showing the correct facial expressions.

On the other hand, I thought masks were a good idea, thought mask wearing would get easier as time went on, but the reverse is true. I manage about ten to fifteen minutes then have to get out. Yesterday I averted two panic attacks in the 15 mins I was in m&s so that was a good day. The day before I sobbed around Tesco before paying for what I had and leaving. It means doing my shopping in small bursts.

I didn't have a disability prior to march. Now I get panic attacks
Me too. Mostly when I’m exposed to people not wearing masks. It feels risky and unsafe and I panic, especially if I can’t get away from them. I welcome the mask refusers being denied access unless they have proof.

Could you get a Sunflower lanyard?

People who use the sunflower lanyard for its intended purpose of alerting staff to a person in need who may have some difficulties and need more assistance are already speaking out about how anti maskers are almost to the point of delegitimising the scheme they physically and mentally need to be able to live and experience life as easily as someone who is physically and mentally able, so thanks anti maskers for making being a disabled person life even harder than it already is in Tory Britain

The problem is it is difficult to provide proof. The GMC advised GP’s not to provide letters about mask wearing.
As someone who cannot wear a mask or any other device that will cover any of my senses over, it is hard work. My anxiety went through the roof when I saw in the media the supermarkets would be aggressively policing non mask wearing. I have already been asked several times for written proof, I cannot provide it as my GP surgery won’t do them for anyone. Which leaves me having to explain why I have PTSD, it brings it all back. It makes food shopping an incredibly stressful and anxious activity.

I do use hand sanitiser wherever possible I do respect social distances but I don’t see everyone else doing the same. Why does no one police these in supermarkets? It’s as if wearing a mask is some sort of magic barrier to the virus, it’s not.

Don’t know but wouldn’t have thought so. Blue badges would have to be abolished if it were?

The thing is, staff should not be interrogating people about why they can’t wear a mask - but a polite enquiry (“excuse me, are you able to wear a mask? We do require them in this shop”) I think is morally fine. It’s a fair balancing act of respecting people’s privacy and rights, while also reminding everybody about the importance of masks. I’ve been told by staff that most people who walk in without a mask will put one on when politely prompted, so I assume they’re people who don’t want to, but can wear a mask.

We’re trying to protect everybody here, and it does mean balancing different people’s needs.

@DenisetheMenace

Don’t know but wouldn’t have thought so. Blue badges would have to be abolished if it were?

You clearly have no idea how hard it is to get a blue badge. That is a really offensive remark, and demonstrates just how downright nasty people have become about disability. It was bad enough before Covid, now it is way over the top. You should apologise for that comment, but anyone with the grace to do so wouldn't have been stupid enough to make it in the first place. Your comment is disgusting and uncalled for.

@Moondust001 - I think @DenisetheMenace was just answering the original question - is it discrimination to ask for proof of disability - and answering that if it was then the blue badge scheme wouldn’t really work as those have to be shown/displayed. Other posts have made the same point. I’m not sure your reaction is warranted tbh.

@thebestnamehere What does autism look like to you? Autism is not always "obvious". If you saw me in real life you would not know unless I told you. Same with my diagnosed daughter, and my 2 undiagnosed but waiting assessment kids, and my undiagnosed but almost certainly autistic husband. I have 2 degrees, I had a successful career before becoming a SAHM, I speak in "normal" speech patterns, I walk "normally", I don't need care, I dont need help with day to day tasks, I wear "normal" clothing. But I cannot tolerate a mask, or anything on my face or head.

@Grooticle

The thing is, staff should not be interrogating people about why they can’t wear a mask - but a polite enquiry (“excuse me, are you able to wear a mask? We do require them in this shop”) I think is morally fine. It’s a fair balancing act of respecting people’s privacy and rights, while also reminding everybody about the importance of masks. I’ve been told by staff that most people who walk in without a mask will put one on when politely prompted, so I assume they’re people who don’t want to, but can wear a mask.

We’re trying to protect everybody here, and it does mean balancing different people’s needs.

This is fair, and accurate. I am happy to be asked by a member of staff and to explain I am exempt. Its the constant "wheres your proof" or being challenged by a customer when the staff member at the door was fine with the explanation thats a problem. For example, I forgot my lanyard, went to buy essentials from the shop, staff member at the door was ok with that. But in the queue when I asked the customer behind me to give some more space as there was only 30cm between us and its meant to be 2m, I get extra nervous about distancing as I cannot wear a mask. They instead made a comment about 'well wear a mask then'. I explained I'm exempt (without saying why) which then prompted them and another customer to pile in agressively about "wheres my badge" "wheres my proof" etc. I ended up leaving the shop in tears. People seem to think they have the right to challenge anyone they like, rather than assume that the person has done everything they can and has a legitimate reason to not wear a mask.

[quote Grooticle]@CovidPostingName - yes they’ve shafted us all! And yes we are taking a risk, but there’s risks either way, so we’re just going our best to be as safe and sensitive as possible. Hopefully if it came to it a court would be sympathetic that we are doing our best! And in any event somebody could access our services in other ways if they can’t/won’t wear a mask.[/quote]
A court may be sympathetic however that may not protect you if you are found to have breached disability laws - a case has already recently been settled out of court as I assume the shop in question was advised that was the best course of action disabilityrights.org.uk/first-face-mask-discrimination-case-nets-7-000

My suspicion is a lot of those who have trouble with being asked for proof are relatively newly disabled or younger.

I’m in my thirties, lifelong disabled (visibly so). I grew up being asked for proof etc, it’s my normal and it’s fine. I also remember what attitudes and accessibility was like in the 80s.

But I also work with a lot of newly disabled people to claim things like PIP, blue badges. Those have got a lot harder to get in recent years. And those people (and younger lifelong disabled people) are often frustrated, surprised and embarrassed by the difficulties they face with access, get proof of disability, attitudes, life in general and the intimate info that you have to share.

Actually the article says service provider not specifically shop but it still applies

@Glenorma

I didn't have a disability prior to march. Now I get panic attacks Me too. Mostly when I’m exposed to people not wearing masks. It feels risky and unsafe and I panic, especially if I can’t get away from them. I welcome the mask refusers being denied access unless they have proof.

It's a horrible situation all around isn't it. I'm sorry that they're struggling so much too.

@BellaintheWychElm - thanks for the article. It’s such a hard situation, as obviously we can’t (and don’t want to!) discriminate against people who can’t wear masks, but also we need to protect everybody else inside our premises (staff and other customers). We have legal obligations to our staff as well. So we’re doing our best to balance everybody’s needs. I think our current approach is reasonable. The government has said people that don’t have to provide proof, but they haven’t said I have to let people come in without a mask.

That should have read sorry that you're struggling so much too. Panic attacks are awful.

The biggest problem for me is shop staff not wearing masks, particularly if they’re on the till, because I can’t avoid interacting with them and I can’t get away from them. Last time I put my shopping through the till the assistant wasn’t wearing a mask, and I felt this rising panic that got worse the longer I was standing there, because I know that longer exposure is a higher risk. I was rushing my groceries through the till to get away from her ASAP, and I was shaking so I ended up dropping my custard on the floor and it burst everywhere, and I literally ran out of the store sobbing and just left all of my groceries. If shop staff can’t wear masks then I do think the store needs to redeploy them away from the till (and ideally away from the shop floor) for everyone’s safety.

@Glenorma

The biggest problem for me is shop staff not wearing masks, particularly if they’re on the till, because I can’t avoid interacting with them and I can’t get away from them. Last time I put my shopping through the till the assistant wasn’t wearing a mask, and I felt this rising panic that got worse the longer I was standing there, because I know that longer exposure is a higher risk. I was rushing my groceries through the till to get away from her ASAP, and I was shaking so I ended up dropping my custard on the floor and it burst everywhere, and I literally ran out of the store sobbing and just left all of my groceries. If shop staff can’t wear masks then I do think the store needs to redeploy them away from the till (and ideally away from the shop floor) for everyone’s safety.

Difficult one? Are you able to wear a mask? Have you seen those with valves? They protect the wearer. I think it might be a good idea to consider, because feeling that scared must be a hideous experience. I've seen people wearing the usual cloth one combined with one of these.

It’s idiots like Laurence (not a very good actor but what else am I supposed to do) Fox who are to blame for the cynicism about people not wearing masks. The assumption is that non mask wearing people are as stupid as Fox and Piers Corbyn. Which to be fair, a lot of them are.

I suspect that you are not actually disabled at all and just being goady.

Then you'd be wrong. Search my post history and you'll find that I have posted extensively about being autistic, being a wheelchair user, having a blue badge, and having had to fight through the courts against actual disability discrimation. So jog on with your dismal of my opinion as a disabled person because it's different to yours.

@viques

It’s idiots like Laurence (not a very good actor but what else am I supposed to do) Fox who are to blame for the cynicism about people not wearing masks. The assumption is that non mask wearing people are as stupid as Fox and Piers Corbyn. Which to be fair, a lot of them are.

I think it's more complicated than that, reading glenormas account of for terrified they feel. Being unable to wear a mask is real and being terrified having to be in a shop is real. If it weren't so polarised, we might be able to come to some more creative solutions.

@Soontobe60

It is shocking the number of people who’ve developed COPD since compulsory mask wearing came into force. And asthma! A disease that is caused by inflammation of the airways as a result of an allergic response to environmental factors. In fact, wearing a mask to prevent allergens from entering the respiratory system should actually reduce the possibility of having an asthma attack! Who knew!!!

That is only one of the triggers of Asthma not everyone's is the same but being an asthma expert you would know that

I think it's more complicated than that, reading glenormas account of for terrified they feel.
Being unable to wear a mask is real and being terrified having to be in a shop is real.
I wear a mask. But they’ve been telling us for months that a mask protects others not yourself. I’m terrified of others who don’t wear masks, in case they give me Covid. I have bad lungs and I know if I catch it I’ll be very ill and possibly even die.

I struggle to wear a mask because of the smell. I'm autistic and get sensory overload sometimes. I think it's because I have to use an FFP3 one as I'm high risk and they're really close fitting. So I cope by avoiding situations where I need one as much as possible.But when I can't I wear one and grit my teeth. I guess it's a bit easier to endure it because I know my mask is protecting me.