Is it discrimination to ask for proof of disability?

[Morph2lcfc]

I’ve seen this said quite a few times over last few months that’s it’s discriminatory to ask for proof for mask exemption.

My son has an invisible disability (autism) and we’ve had to provide proof of disability for lots of other things in the past as I’m sure other disabled people have and I’ve never heard it being an issue until now. So for example blue badge, ride access pass for theme parks, cea card so can take a carer to cinema etc etc. Why is it suddenly an issue now? Is it just anti mask people saying this or are some people genuinely offended at being asked for proof?

The only other time previously I heard proof couldn’t he requested was in some parts of the USA but also that in those states it was illegal to impersonate a disabled person anyway so it kind of balanced out.

It’s not really an issue for us currently as my son doesn’t really go anywhere at the minute where he has to wear a mask anyway, I go shopping on my own etc but realise this isn’t always possible for everyone. I just wondered really why it’s suddenly become such a thing to not be able to ask for proof when prior to the pandemic it was an everyday thing that just happened

Its a shame there are so many idiots out there taking advantage of this situation and placing the valid cases under scrutiny.

No its not descrimination for you to be asked for proof of your exemption or what the reason is for said exemption, nor should it be classed as that under these circumstances.

Some People in this country are just ludicrous. My BF carries around documents regarding her sons Autism, just incase she is ever queried of course she is not going to go all nuclear for being asked during these times, especially when its quite clear why its needed.

I get that those with extreme ptsd or advanced dementia that would be impossible. For the many others a bit of positive thinking may be worth a try.

I have ptsd. I can now tolerate a mask for short periods but it's been a rocky road. I'm likely to be scarred for life because of it, nearly got sectioned following a suicide attempt (caused by the thought of permanent masks) and had trouble convincing Tesco staff not to call an ambulance after a combination of mask and someone brushing again me (there was more than enough space) caused a full blown attack where I lost all sense of where I was/what I was doing. My sleep is screwed up the day before/the night after I have to wear one. My nightmares are the worst they've been in a long time and that's 2 years if NHS therapy down the drain as I've reverted to my unhealthy coping mechanisms. My consultant psychiatrist told me off for even attempting it. I can definitely understand why others in my shoes would choose not to especially when coupled with the lack of mental health support right now.

The oxygen mask argument makes zero sense to me. I have declined one in the past and I would refuse one again. I also won't accept blood transfusions. Not everyone wants to cling to life.

For me, a big issue was the framing of it as a disability. I don't consider myself disabled although if I'm being honest it's definitely impacted areas of my life but I'd adapted

@Dinosauratemydaffodils - I have had very very similar experiences. It's awful. I'm still in a terrible state and am currently in daily contact with the crisis team after three years of recovery. I'm on a higher dose of meds than I've ever been on before in my life and I can't sleep without being dosed up to the eyeballs.

And I've tried every single thing pro mask types suggest - building up tolerance in the house, focusing on how important it is, visor, scarf - but it doesn't make it better. It's made it worse. At the start of lockdown I could manage a short food shop with a mask. Now I have a full blown hypoventilation attack a third of the time I try and wear one. I haven't been into a shop since early December when I ended up curled up in a foetal ball rocking back and forth. It was awful.

If the rules expand to wear a mask any time you're outside I will not be able to leave the house and will probably lose my job.

Re - oxygen masks - I suspect I'd not be able to wear one. I had a panic a few years ago when in hospital after an operation and ended up pulling a drip out of my arm and trying to run away while unable to stand because someone had tied the drip to my bed, effectively tying me down. I ended up in a fairly bad way as a result.

I really don't think people get it. PTSD isn't a condition where you feel mild discomfort and get bad memories sometimes but can get through it with the power of positive thinking.

I'm disabled and would not mind showing what evidence I have if asked. The problem is that the 'not all disabilities are visible' is an easy thing to abuse, from not wanting to wear a mask to parking etc. I don't see what is so wrong with being 'labelled' - if the label is genuine, then why not? my child’s difference is fairly obvious but there are reasons people don’t want to declare their disability or be diagnosed. This is only from April last year www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/learning-disabilities-patients-told-they-may-be-too-frail-for-mechanical-ventilation-if-they-get-covid-19/7027318.article
I don’t think it takes an enormous amount of imagination to work out why disabled people are cautious about authority/rules.

I said exactly this to my DH today. I am disabled and can think of plenty of scenarios when you have to provide proof of disability in order to get a concession or permit etc etc. Not sure why this is any different and I don't think it's discriminatory just to ask.

However, I can see the point that you don't want to be discussing your personal medical or traumatic past with a random shop worker in a public place. That's more the problem than the request for proof itself being discriminatory.

Ideally there would be some sort of letter or badge people could show but that would involve additional jobs for our already stretched NHS so not sure what the answer is really. Other than anti-maskers stopping taking the fucking piss, pretending to be disabled, and thereby causing problems for actual disabled people.

@RavingAnnie

I said exactly this to my DH today. I am disabled and can think of plenty of scenarios when you have to provide proof of disability in order to get a concession or permit etc etc. Not sure why this is any different and I don't think it's discriminatory just to ask.

However, I can see the point that you don't want to be discussing your personal medical or traumatic past with a random shop worker in a public place. That's more the problem than the request for proof itself being discriminatory.

Ideally there would be some sort of letter or badge people could show but that would involve additional jobs for our already stretched NHS so not sure what the answer is really. Other than anti-maskers stopping taking the fucking piss, pretending to be disabled, and thereby causing problems for actual disabled people.

It simple and easy to understand. Anyone who feels they can't wear a mask is exempt. If the mumsnet police or anyone else asks them why they are not wearing a mask then there might not be a personal medical problem or traumatic past for them to share. Their condition may be confined to not being able to wear a mask and the cure or solution is not to wear one. Its also discriminatory and pointless to expect anyone exempt to wear anything saying they are exempt when being exempt is something that is a self diagnosed condition. Pointless going to the doctor with this condition because the conversation would go like this. Individual who can't wear a mask - "I can't wear a mask". Doctor - "Then don't wear one".

Of course if people are exempt and want to wear something to stop busy bodies from asking personal questions or giving them dirty looks then gov.uk has a print out that can be used as a badge.

@5zeds

I'm disabled and would not mind showing what evidence I have if asked. The problem is that the 'not all disabilities are visible' is an easy thing to abuse, from not wanting to wear a mask to parking etc. I don't see what is so wrong with being 'labelled' - if the label is genuine, then why not? my child’s difference is fairly obvious but there are reasons people don’t want to declare their disability or be diagnosed. This is only from April last year www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/learning-disabilities-patients-told-they-may-be-too-frail-for-mechanical-ventilation-if-they-get-covid-19/7027318.article I don’t think it takes an enormous amount of imagination to work out why disabled people are cautious about authority/rules.

That is shocking! What has having a learning disability got to do with being frail?

@Billie18 it has nothing to do with it. I had a really hard time at the beginning of Covid last year even after they reversed the guidelines. I just hate that SO MANY people must have read and discussed that before it was challenged and thought it was ok.. Imagine living and working and contributing to a country that won’t treat you child.

I said exactly this to my DH today. I am disabled and can think of plenty of scenarios when you have to provide proof of disability in order to get a concession or permit etc etc. Not sure why this is any different and I don't think it's discriminatory just to ask.

The thing is that for most of those cases there is a mechanism in place for getting the proof without having to show people a load of personal information, notably via the Blue Badge scheme - but there isn't any such mechanism for mask wearing. So if people do have to carry evidence around with them, they may not be able to get it or it may be in the shape of reports which give the reader a load of person information above and beyond what they actually need.

*It simple and easy to understand. Anyone who feels they can't wear a mask is exempt. If the mumsnet police or anyone else asks them why they are not wearing a mask then there might not be a personal medical problem or traumatic past for them to share. Their condition may be confined to not being able to wear a mask and the cure or solution is not to wear one. Its also discriminatory and pointless to expect anyone exempt to wear anything saying they are exempt when being exempt is something that is a self diagnosed condition. Pointless going to the doctor with this condition because the conversation would go like this. Individual who can't wear a mask - "I can't wear a mask". Doctor - "Then don't wear one".

Of course if people are exempt and want to wear something to stop busy bodies from asking personal questions or giving them dirty looks then gov.uk has a print out that can be used as a badge.*

Actually, people are exempt if wearing a mask causes them physical or emotional distress. So not being able to breath or a suffering a panic attack would be fine, just feeling that you can't isn't.

I strongly feel that there should be something akin to the blue badge scheme, because as it is mask dodgers are taking the piss, and that is making life difficult for those who are exempt.

The problem is that there is no system that will allow you to have a card saying you have a disability.
That disability could be about wearing mask, needing someone with you to go shopping, avoiding queues at the entrance of the store. It’s not just about masks. It’s about all the ways that people with some disabilities are been ignored and pushed back ‘to save the nhs’ etc.. with no consideration to the discrimination

An exemption card can be bought cheaply from hiddendisabilitiesstore.com/hidden-disabilities-face-covering.html if you feel more comfortable having a card to show. I have a family member who carries a letter from her GP stating her exemption, in case it is requested.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

With respect, panic attacks aren't a disability.

With respect, you don’t get to decide whether a person’s medical issues disables them or not and whether they consider themselves disabled by it as a result. One person’s panic attacks may allow them to live a functional life. One person’s may not. Both those people might have a different idea as to whether they have a disability or not. Comments like yours are quite offensive.

Under the Equality Act, a disability is a physical or a mental condition which has a substantial and long-term impact on your ability to do normal day to day activities. Panic attacks may not themselves be a disability, but they may well be a symptom of disability in just the same way as, say, vomiting, dizziness, a tendency to fall and fainting. Therefore if panic attacks mean that you cannot undertake normal day to day shopping, they are clear indicators of disability.

'With respect, you don’t get to decide whether a person’s medical issues disables them or not and whether they consider themselves disabled by it as a result. '

A panic attack is a manageable mental health condition. It really does a great disservice to disabled people to suggest if you have a panic attack you are disabled. What next PIP and a blue badge?

A panic attack is a manageable mental health condition.

Can't speak for everyone who suffers panic attacks but I'm imagining a majority can be managed with reasonable adjustments, which is what people are asking for.
Without those reasonable adjustments, it is affecting people's ability to function in certain circumstances.

@Soontobe60

It is shocking the number of people who’ve developed COPD since compulsory mask wearing came into force. And asthma! A disease that is caused by inflammation of the airways as a result of an allergic response to environmental factors. In fact, wearing a mask to prevent allergens from entering the respiratory system should actually reduce the possibility of having an asthma attack! Who knew!!!

There aren't suddenly more of them and you clearly know little about either of those conditions.

These are hidden disabilities/medical conditions. Have you considered the possibility that prior to mask wearing you were simply largely unaware of these conditions because you cannot see them? People who have them look no different to others because you cannot see their internal organs such as heart and lungs.

My Dad has advanced COPD with heart failure. Of course he didn't always have it. It has developed over time. He struggles to breathe without a mask (except for the nebuliser type that are pumping oxygen in hospitals) and it is scary to watch. He rarely goes out now except for medical appointments because it is such a struggle and feeling that he has to wear a face mask makes it massively harder. He doesn't like to use his exemption because he is scared that people will question him and bully him.

This was a once confident man who is a retired school headmaster. This is the effect that the current climate of people trying to police something they know nothing about has had on very many genuine people.

A panic attack is a manageable mental health condition. It really does a great disservice to disabled people to suggest if you have a panic attack you are disabled. What next PIP and a blue badge?

What level of manageable do you deem worthy of an illness before it is disabling a person? Slippery slope that one.

And you can be disabled while not qualifying for PIP or a blue badge.

Can we agree that it's all unfair and that trusting people is better and it's so hard to provide proof anyway, but still say it must be done under the circumstances.

I don't suppose anyone really thinks the shops are doing it to be difficult. It's all the people taking the piss that are causing this problem.

And can we not ask those who can't shop without endangering others by not wearing a mask to shop online or get someone to shop for them as much as possible? Why is that not a reasonable request?

@LastTrainEast - money.

Home delivery of shopping now costs.

it's so hard to provide proof anyway, but still say it must be done under the circumstances

Well, we could but then we are back round to the point of what proof are people supposed to provide? Person A might be able to prove they have a certain medical condition but Person B decides that isn’t a valid reason in their personal opinion and doesn’t let them in the shop. You see enough of it on here when people are exempt for medical reasons and people pile on with examples of people they know with the same condition who can wear a mask. It’s not like they give you a certificate to say you are disabled and you just whip it out whenever it’s convenient 😂

Why is that not a reasonable request?

It’s a reasonable request but when people say it’s not possible for them, other people can’t seem to fathom that not everyone has people who can shop for them, people can’t get slots for online delivery, lots of places have no support groups anymore for going to shops for people etc. A lot of disabled people were socially isolated pre COVID and don’t suddenly have a support network just because other people need them to have one.

@GetOffYourHighHorse
With respect, panic attacks aren't a disability. They are of course a recognised mental health issue, but we don't say for example if someone has diabetes or asthma they are disabled. They may well be, but one diagnosis on its own certainly doesn't equal disability.

Actually there are some illnesses which class you are disabled from the day of being diagnosed - cancer, HIV and Multiple Sclerosis.

I have the latter. My panic attacks are far more debilitating than my MS.

'And can we not ask those who can't shop without endangering others by not wearing a mask to shop online or get someone to shop for them as much as possible? Why is that not a reasonable request'

Well, they have a right you seeto do as they please. Unlike the genuinely vulnerable people who seemingly don't have any rights to be protected from potentially infected droplets when shopping.

Shop online. If you are actually CEV you will have priority slots, it is there on the gov website how to do it. There are still plenty of slots anyway it's not like it was in Mar. If you can't/won't then go at 7am and take some personal responsibility.

There is a HUGE difference to a person supplying relevant health information to Benefits Agencies/ Blue Badge teams etc etc who are bound by their specific professional bodies rules and regulations re Data Protection and telling all and sundry in a supermarket (supermarket staff included) your inner medical or social /emotional/behavioural difficulties.
Please have some respect for people with disabilities and help them to have some dignity. If people can’t wear a mask and you are concerned then avoid the area they are in. It’s not difficult. Not
Many shops are that small.

Most disabilities are 'manageable', otherwise we couldn't live with them. I wear a mask, but how well I manage my conditions doesn't change whether I have them.

I do not see how someone with panic attacks saying they're disabled does anything to me, or how a "manageable health condition" somehow cannot be seen as a disability and many disabilities don't enable someone to get PIP or a blue badge.

I get neither and I have multiple disabilities, multiple HCPs involved in my on-going care, am (hopefully) moving so I can live in a more accessible house with a ramp and shower room to safely take one on my own. I've supported others through the process for PIP and it's very stressful.

People really need get past their narrow ideas of what is a disability and what people get by having one. As already said, by the Equality Act 2010, a disability (which 15-20% of the UK adult population have)
is "a physical or mental impairment that has a 'substantial' and 'long-term' negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities." which yeah, can include panic attacks which for takes some people quite a bit of time to learn how to 'manage'.

I have CPTSD, I get flashbacks, and the only way I "manage" it relies on other people. I can't 'manage' a flashback on my own (and I've contradictions to medications). I can set up my environment to improve my wellbeing which makes them less common, but if I wake up having a flashback, I can be stuck there for hours so my morning 'routine' involves check in from other people to 'manage' if that happens.

Personally, while I understand why some prefer a distinction between chronic illness and disability, I find the person that goes on about how they're not disabled and how other people with the same condition shouldn't call themselves disabled far more detrimental. There is no disservice to recognizing a medical limitation or the social barriers that make them harder to live with, there is in pushing the stigma that there is something so terrible about being disabled that only the very worst off should be viewed that way.