Is it discrimination to ask for proof of disability?

[Morph2lcfc]

I’ve seen this said quite a few times over last few months that’s it’s discriminatory to ask for proof for mask exemption.

My son has an invisible disability (autism) and we’ve had to provide proof of disability for lots of other things in the past as I’m sure other disabled people have and I’ve never heard it being an issue until now. So for example blue badge, ride access pass for theme parks, cea card so can take a carer to cinema etc etc. Why is it suddenly an issue now? Is it just anti mask people saying this or are some people genuinely offended at being asked for proof?

The only other time previously I heard proof couldn’t he requested was in some parts of the USA but also that in those states it was illegal to impersonate a disabled person anyway so it kind of balanced out.

It’s not really an issue for us currently as my son doesn’t really go anywhere at the minute where he has to wear a mask anyway, I go shopping on my own etc but realise this isn’t always possible for everyone. I just wondered really why it’s suddenly become such a thing to not be able to ask for proof when prior to the pandemic it was an everyday thing that just happened

The main reason shops are shut, click and collect has to be outside etc is to stop people turning shopping into a social outing. If you are having to queue outside it is taking the fun out of it and means people are only going when they need to as well as it being safer for everyone.

It is shocking the number of people who’ve developed COPD since compulsory mask wearing came into force. And asthma! A disease that is caused by inflammation of the airways as a result of an allergic response to environmental factors. In fact, wearing a mask to prevent allergens from entering the respiratory system should actually reduce the possibility of having an asthma attack! Who knew!!!

@Grooticle there isn't legislation saying you can't ask, no. The problem would only come if you decided not to accept the statement "I'm medically exempt" from someone with a genuine issue, who then went on to raise a complaint/case. That's when the debate opens up considerably. The govt has shafted both the disabled and small business owners. As per usual.

I was responding to sockwomble, meaning my first post upthread rather than a post from another thread. I though my post would follow next but I type so slow it didn't and now it doesn't make sense.

@MillieEpple - yes we do have alternatives we can offer to anybody who won’t or can’t wear a mask :) we have one regular customer who we know is exempt and much prefers to shop the old fashioned way and our staff are happy to support her that way, but there are alternatives.

It is discriminatory and also an issue with GDPR. Nobody has a right to your personal data. Also if you are exempt because of a medical issue ie sever asthma you wouldn't necessarily have that proof written anywhere. This is why we all need to trust that people aren't wearing a mask for a reason.

small example, if you are exempt from wearing a seat belt and you are stopped by the police you have to show proof, so don't see any problem with shops asking for proof for not wearing a mask

@CovidPostingName - yes they’ve shafted us all! And yes we are taking a risk, but there’s risks either way, so we’re just going our best to be as safe and sensitive as possible. Hopefully if it came to it a court would be sympathetic that we are doing our best! And in any event somebody could access our services in other ways if they can’t/won’t wear a mask.

The problem is that autism for instance isn't a barrier to wearing a mask per se so not sure what you could show. My dd actually likes wearing a mask as currently says she's wearing one after covid too! Autism like so many conditions it not homogeneous

It doesn’t say you can’t ask / just that the person doesn’t have to provide it

But the corollary to that is that you can't refuse to serve them if they don't provide proof, because if they are disabled, you are still discriminating against them on the basis of a disability.

As for the suggestion that you would have a defence on the basis of a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate end, the first problem you have to contend with is that the guidance indicates that it is not proportionate. Of course, we don't know exactly how courts would react, but I suspect any shop would struggle to justify that it's OK for shops to refuse to serve all people with breathing problems.

You can't actually get a letter saying "this person can't wear a mask" under normal circumstances - GPs have been told not to give them. My CPN - community psychiatric nurse - wrote me one but I think I'm in a minority in having access to that. I got that after a particularly upsetting episode where someone asked me why I couldn't wear a mask, I told them, and they then freaked out and told me off for explaining "where children could hear".

But most people can't get this "proof".

A lot of proofs are about proof of particular needs (generally caused by disability) rather than proof of disability. Most of the blue badge criteria are not 'absolute' disabilities eg having a particular condition mostly does not automatically mean you get a badge.

So although someone in authority asking for proof of disability is not discrimination actually getting the proof is often not straightforward.

The way to avoid claims of discrimination is to treat everyone the same

It absolutely is not. That's the whole point of the DDA and the Equality Act, treating people differently is not necessarily discrimination and in many cases is necessary to provide a service.

It's perfectly reasonable for a shop to say wear a mask or show an exemption card/letter to get access. I have to have a blue badge to park in the disabled parking, this is no different.

As for needing proof you cannot queue I think that's perfectly reasonable, I know deaf people who get DLA.

@Mercedes519

I think it comes from a place of wanting to trust people, to not constantly ask people with disabilities to justify their conditions.

However the amount of shitty people who think it’s alright to lie and claim that they have a disability in order to get a blue badge/free entry/mask exemption means that you can’t take it on trust.

It is positive discrimination I suppose as the intent is to help. But most people would just explain/have a card etc. as the amount of nosy people who already police it already exist. So the other caveat is who is asking? The security at the front door of the supermarket, fine. The nosy people who eyeball me when I jump out the car (and then help disabled DH out of the passenger seat) not so much!

It would be nigh on impossible to get a Blue badge in my county if you were not really disabled. We had real problems getting one for my husband, and he really does need one!

The fact that it-s near impossible to get proof is another argument against the "proportionate means to a legitimate end" argument. In effect you are saying to disabled people "I will only serve you if you produce something that is impossible to get".

[quote Olivestone]@Grooticle
From Government website www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

'Exemption cards
If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering:

you do not routinely need to show any written evidence of this
you do not need show an exemption card
This means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering.

However, some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

Carrying an exemption card or badge is a personal choice and is not required by law.'

I agree with previous poster it is awful that people are being stopped walking into supermarkets being quizzed about their reason for not wearing a mask by security and feeling they either explain something very personal to some random person in the middle of Morrison's or turn around and leave![/quote]
If questioned people should just state that they are exempt. If they feel harassed by shop security or shop staff then they should make an official complaint to the shops management or customer services. I would expect that would result in an apology and an agreement to address the issue with staff training. If not and you have the energy you could always take the matter further legally.

To prevent being questioned or dirty looks from busy bodies then some people may choose to print off the exemption card from gov.uk, make a home made card or purchase something. But they don't have to. Not everyone wants to have something like that visible.

There is no official diagnosis for not being able to wear a face mask it is something that can only be self diagnosed. No official evidence exists. Personally I think a sign at the entrance of anywhere were face masks are mandatory unless exempt is sufficient. Anyone not wearing a face mask should be judged as exempt.

The whole process is flawed and ridiculous.

Anyone can buy a lanyard or exemption card off the internet or from shops so they don’t actually mean anything or prove anything.

While some people are unable to wear a mask, this doesn't stop them spreading Covid, does it? So if you can't wear a mask, surely avoiding crowded places and too much contact with others is the socially responsible thing to do. Also, other people don't know you are exempt. They will just think you are not conforming. Then they might decide not to wear a mask either.

I don't think I have a letter saying ds has autism. We were never given one. I have paed consultation notes with lots of personal information on them which includes autism but I wouldn't be happy showing those to strangers. There must be lots of people in the same position.

It's perfectly reasonable for a shop to say wear a mask or show an exemption card/letter to get access. I have to have a blue badge to park in the disabled parking, this is no different.

The difference is that it is virtually impossible to get an exemption letter as the NHS understandably has better things to do. You can produce your own exemption card, of course, but as that doesn't prove anything I don't understand why a shop would demand it.

If you can't wear a mask, it is probably best for everyone if you avoid shops.

Its the "you can't make me!" mentality.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who deliberately refuse to see the intrinsic link between rights and responsibilities, and choose to believe as though they personally (and those they identify with) have rights and no responsibilities, and those they see as other have all the responsibilities.

As so very, very many people take the piss there should be a dignified, sensible ID system of cards without any medical detail for those genuinely exempt. The ones objecting to the idea are the people who know they don't actually have a disability, but simply can't be bothered to find a mask which works with their glasses, or to gradually get used to a mask so they can cope.

I've helped my clients with learning disabilities and autism find masks they can wear and get used to them - we've only found three people who genuinely can't cope with them out of a group of 15 people in a supported residential setting. In the country I live in people who can't wear masks need a doctor's letter, and get one because most people do their best to be able to wear them, so the few who genuinely can't are protected.

It is tricky and it’s not just about mask wearing.

There was a thread in here about an elderly couple that was been refused entry to the supermarket because we are supposed to shop alone. Except the lady has Alzheimer’s so can’t be left alone.
I have mobility issues and need support to do the packing etc...

Personally I would have no issue with a card. I have more issue with having to explain at length what I have. I worry that I won’t be believed (a friend of mine has had lots of issues with her fibromyalgia and people saying it’s not real or warranting the no mask/second person exemption). And tbh, some people/security staff have no clue about medical condition and take ‘a hard stance’ when it’s not warranted.
It doesn’t make it a nice environment.

Which actually means I’d rather have a compulsory card so there is no more discussion on who can or can’t have some exemption

@CovidPostingName

The problem with that *@Grooticle* is that the govt itself currently says that your customers do not have to provide proof, and you would actually be in breach of the Equities Act 2010 of your customer could be bothered to make a complaint.

Personally, also having an autistic son, I'm not particularly averse to being asked if he's medically exempt, but none of the four years worth paperwork we have mentions masks. And I asked our gp for a very quick short letter statement and they refused. As did the consultant. The government has made it impossible for us to get proof of mask intolerance.

So what would you do with us?

Surely people would see your son and see the exemption applies? In any case, the answer is that they have to accept your answer to the exemption question. You cannot be quizzed about the reason. Saying you are exempt is enough. Could you get a Sunflower lanyard?

@Buzzinwithbez

Autism is a very broad diagnosis, from those with severe learning disabilities unable to function independently at all requiring lifelong care to those who marry, have children and hold very important jobs. Mask wearing is possible for many people with autism, my dd loves wearing hers (she's a young adult) and an older friend with autism (he's mid 50's) also wears one without issue. My Dp's dd has severe learning disabilities including maybe autism (not possible to assess due to other disabilities) and wears her teletubbies masks all the time, loves them - she will randomly take it off in a shop but we just calmly tell her to put it back on and 95% of the time she does. Please don't get anxious about masks