Police force entry into home over suspected Covid breach

[AnxiousAlpaca]

Has anyone else seen this? I’m in support of the lockdown and don’t feel measures go far enough e.g. Too many people going into work, garden centres open etc. However, I find this dystopian. www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/trio-charged-assaulting-police-called-23282961

Well I mean I know people who have refused police entry to their home before. In fact the police came to my house a few months ago (malicious report from my child's father who said I'd been in physical altercation in a park, completely made up) and my bf (who is an officer!) told me if it happened again just to refuse them entry.

I was pretty certain they had to either have a search warrant or belief that a serious crime was being committed.

I just googled and found this.

Is that screenshot from a Scottish source @themental ?

@RickiTarr sorry that was just from a lawyers page! Here's the Wikipedia screenshot for Police Scotland though.

Totally willing to accept I've been misinformed my whole life... but I grew up in a pretty deprived / high crime area where the police weren't exactly... liked? And with several in my street (including family members) who couldn't do basic maths but could tell you exactly what a bizzy needed to do you for speeding, or any other crime etc... and I was always told you can refuse entry 🤷🏻‍♀️

So when he told me that you can't refuse entry anymore (for suspected covid breaches) I was a bit shocked because two people chatting on the sofa in view of the window could be a suspected covid breach -- if they had enough suspicion. It made me think it'd be open to abuse.

No not at all @themental I am English in England but ILs are Glaswegian so knew it was slightly different up there but didn’t fully realise how much. It was only when I saw your screenshot that I realised you probably weren’t talking about E&W, though. The “close pursuit” really stands out as different. I understand the thread a bit better now, thanks.

My amateur summary would be that down here, because our rules are a bit looser, any officer who wanted to could probably make something up as an excuse to enter a house and then it’s their word against a civilian’s. I much prefer your rules up there.

So when he told me that you can't refuse entry anymore (for suspected covid breaches) I was a bit shocked because two people chatting on the sofa in view of the window could be a suspected covid breach -- if they had enough suspicion. It made me think it'd be open to abuse.

Its nothing to do with covid laws. The police can enter any premises, including your home, if they believe a crime is being committed, or about to be committed. It's always been that way. For example domestic violence, or any violence, a child in danger, an attempted suicide, a fire, a distressed animal, and all sorts of other reasons, and yes public health reasons (eg covid) as well

A warrant is for usually for a specific reason, like a serach for drugs or stolen property from a burglary

@Flaxmeadow I will double check but I'm pretty sure (and the screenshot from the police scotland wiki below confirms) that it's always been about protecting life / cries for help / in close pursuit of a serious crime.

Before the new Coronavirus Restrictions Scotland 2020 specific regulations came into force:

7.—(1) A relevant person may take such action as is necessary to enforce any requirement imposed by these Regulations.

(Relevant person being a constable)

Then I don't believe that public health reasons (unless like I said above cries for help)/ covid would have been reason enough for an officer to enter your home without your permission. I'm certainly going to ask an officer now though 😂

But regardless... the woman in the video clearly did not believe the officer had a right to be inside her home at that point (hence why he explained that actually they have powers to kick the doors in -- he is correct)... and I would have been exactly the same as the woman if someone hadn't told me (surprised that is, not swearing because there's no need).

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/6042355/coronavirus-scotland-police-rule-of-six-gatherings-house-party/amp/

And another one...

Are you talking about Scottish Police powers or English Police powers in your comment?

Was this in scotland ? If so they have different laws to
England and wales don't they

Scotland does have a different system of law but it isn't much different to England/Wales law. In all these places, the police can enter your home without a warrant. It's as simple as that. They probably wouldn't push it usually but they can

People like "woman on the land" or whatever she calls herself, need to get away from the idea that just because you're in your own home, it does not mean you are separated from the law outside your front door.

Covid is a serious public health risk. We know now it is even more contagious than initially thought. Public health law is nothing new, it goes back at least a thousand years, probably two thousand years. Way before the last great plague (1665)

Before the police existed as a force, people were taken to court by the local parish, a local council equivalent back then, for alsorts of health risk reasons. Sewage for example, or farm produce not stored or sold safely, or beer brewed and sold illegally. Dangerous walls of buildings that might collapse in the street.

There is no such thing as shutting yourself in your home, or car, and being "free woman of the land" and all that stuff. It's not our castle, no matter how much we'd like to think it is

@Flaxmeadow okaaaaay so why would they give Police Scotland specific powers to enter homes if they already had that power anyway?

I'm not trying to be argumentative (although it seems you are)... just trying to wrap my head around why my partner (an officer) would tell me to refuse them entry if they came again... when you are saying I have no right to refuse them entry? (I only let them in the first time because I thought I was a witness and not the actual accused!)

Unless you can show me otherwise then I'm going to continue believing that covid aside, they didn't have powers to enter my home unless they believed a serious crime was being committed or someone's life was at risk.

Covid is a serious public health risk.

And while I agree, we still have rights. Or at least in theory we should still have rights.

IF that law hadn't passed then I don't believe the police would have any powers of entry. And I'm pretty certain most people I know wouldn't have believed the police had powers of entry either.

So my actual original point (and it's a point my dp has made to me!) is that they're already walking into a tense situation because a lot of people are unaware that the police CAN force entry and thus are straight away on the defensive. As you witnessed in that video (before the freewoman of the land stuff).

Not watched the clip but in general the police seem to be really keen on going after people about trivial stuff, people who are not criminals and don't know the score and they can get their numbers up.

I've heard DV and child abuse have gone up since lockdown started, what are they doing about that?

Easier to nick generally law abiding people for having a coffee or living in a house together etc though isn't it.

Flaxmeadow okaaaaay so why would they give Police Scotland specific powers to enter homes if they already had that power anyway? confused

I don't they have given specific powers to enter your home, they can already do that if they believe a crime is being committed. Do you mean this from a pp?

7.—(1) A relevant person may take such action as is necessary to enforce any requirement imposed by these Regulations

This is just saying that the officer can use his usual powers to enact the covid law. The powers the officer has are discretionary. Meaning he has to use his own judgement and weigh up the circumstances

I'm not trying to be argumentative (although it seems you are)... just trying to wrap my head around why my partner (an officer) would tell me to refuse them entry if they came again... when you are saying I have no right to refuse them entry? (I only let them in the first time because I thought I was a witness and not the actual accused!)

I didn't say you have no right to refuse entry. You need to ask them why they want to come in. If it's not serious, they want to talk about noise or some nuisance neighbour someone else has reported for example, then they would probably talk on the doorstep. Though this can be juicy gossip fodder for your neighbours, when you might as well just let them in anyway, if you've nothing to hide but even then, they don't care about spliffs in the ashtray and stuff like that.

But if what they say is likely to lead to you being arrested then there's not much point in slamming the door in their face and climbing up on the roof, because you're probably going down, to China town (pardon the pun )

Unless you can show me otherwise then I'm going to continue believing that covid aside, they didn't have powers to enter my home unless they believed a serious crime was being committed or someone's life was at risk.

Peoples lives are at risk. It's a serious public health crisis. That's why the covid laws were brought in and brought in extremely quickly

IF that law hadn't passed then I don't believe the police would have any powers of entry

But the law did pass, an emergency law an the last time it happened was probably WW2, and that should tell us all just how serious the situation is.

They already had the "power of entry" they didn't need a new law about for that .

I think the police go looking for trouble and seem to think a Breach of the Peace is now a really good reason to arrest people. Even if they haven’t done anything

I know people who have called the police because of violent crime and they don’t turn up. They are left to get themselves to hospital and they can’t expect any punishment by the attacker.

BargainCunt

The police do not arrest people without good reason. Stupid entitled woman

Why would expecting to not have the police in your house be a form of entitlement.
My husband was arrested. A case of mistaken identity. They arrest people all the time who haven’t done anything

I’m looking at this from the parent’s POV. They have a child with a medical condition, who has just been released from hospital for trying to kill herself. The child’s home should be a sanctuary, a place to feel safe at all times. As a mother the woman was protecting her child. Emotions ran high due to to already heightened emotions in the family. The police should be ashamed. Very ashamed.

I’m looking at this from the parent’s POV. They have a child with a medical condition, who has just been released from hospital for trying to kill herself. The child’s home should be a sanctuary, a place to feel safe at all times.

So why, as a parent, make the situation worse by effing at the police officer, waving your hand/fist/finger? in his face, and pushing him? Why not just calmly comply?

As a mother the woman was protecting her child. Emotions ran high due to to already heightened emotions in the family. The police should be ashamed. Very ashamed.

Protecting her child from what? The wife is screaming f**k off, the husband is full on in the policeman's face, squaring up to him, he then puts his hand on the policeman, and pushes him, big mistake. Are they drunk or something?. The policeman seems to try to arrest him and the husband resists. Then a child is screaming for the parents to stop

twitter.com/CountDankulaTV/status/1347246304401960961?s=20

Link here

That link is to Count 'Nazi salute' Dankula. Remember him?

His whole tweet replies is full of covid deniers, gun nuts from America (who predictably blame the "English" police), police hating libertarians, it's only the flu, and my freedoms are being stolen, I'm being oppressed brigade

@Flaxmeadow

*twitter.com/CountDankulaTV/status/1347246304401960961?s=20*

Link here

That link is to Count 'Nazi salute' Dankula. Remember him?

His whole tweet replies is full of covid deniers, gun nuts from America (who predictably blame the "English" police), police hating libertarians, it's only the flu, and my freedoms are being stolen, I'm being oppressed brigade

It's the first link to it that I saw - didn't trawl through his page.

twitter.com/BigBrotherWatch/status/1347264640552759296?s=20

There's another one then

@Flaxmeadow

I’m looking at this from the parent’s POV. They have a child with a medical condition, who has just been released from hospital for trying to kill herself. The child’s home should be a sanctuary, a place to feel safe at all times.

So why, as a parent, make the situation worse by effing at the police officer, waving your hand/fist/finger? in his face, and pushing him? Why not just calmly comply?

As a mother the woman was protecting her child. Emotions ran high due to to already heightened emotions in the family. The police should be ashamed. Very ashamed.

Protecting her child from what? The wife is screaming f**k off, the husband is full on in the policeman's face, squaring up to him, he then puts his hand on the policeman, and pushes him, big mistake. Are they drunk or something?. The policeman seems to try to arrest him and the husband resists. Then a child is screaming for the parents to stop

You're warped. What video are you even watching? The husband does not 'square up' to him at all - he's literally just standing there between them.

Whether it's a simply a case of nosy neighbours or part of an ongoing dispute eg neighbours hate each other I don't know but the parents reacted in a way that made police more suspicious which didn't help (I admit I would have been the same!)

The police were heavy handed for sure but they are caught in a difficult position and we don't know what was reported (wrongly) or whether their were visitors earlier who left before police arrived. On the face of it it seems like the neighbours are to blame

We need more of this and soldiers on the streets!

I feel for the police, they cannot win

@doireallyneedaname

We need more of this and soldiers on the streets!

And when a neighbour reports you for a suspected breach when you haven't done anything illegal?

Police need to understand and enforce the law as it is, not what they might like it to be. All that will do is make people less likely to comply with the actual law.

IF that law hadn't passed then I don't believe the police would have any powers of entry

But the law did pass, an emergency law an the last time it happened was probably WW2, and that should tell us all just how serious the situation is.

They already had the "power of entry" they didn't need a new law about for that .

No they didn't! I don't know how many more links / screenshots / news reports I can provide to show you that POLICE IN SCOTLAND DID NOT HAVE POWER OF ENTRY!

You keep saying "if they think a crime is being committed". Perhaps that's the case in England but in Scotland they had to be in CLOSE pursuit of a person they believed to have committed/ about to commit a SERIOUS crime.

You can keep telling me how serious covid is, but having seven people from two households in your home is not a serious crime. Nobody is being murdered or raped ffs.

You seem to be obsessed with going off on this tangent when my original point was that the family (who were sitting in their own home doing absolutely nothing wrong) could have been one of many people who do not expect officers to be in their home without prior belief that a SERIOUS crime is being committed. Because the law changed sneakily last year and it was not very widely reported.

Now you can personally agree with that law change all you want, but many people either don't or are not aware of it.

And when previously law abiding citizens have police barge into their home on a whim, yes they're going to get defensive and tensions are going to rise. As I explained in my original post (did you even read it??) dp is constantly getting "wtf are you doing here" etc because people just aren't aware.

If he hadn't specifically told me they had this power I'd also be asking them to leave - which appears to be what caused the situation to escalate, the woman being adamant that the officers should leave.