To expect to be able to choose not to have the vaccine without being made to feel uncomfortable? *edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[Drogonssmile]

Risking a flaming here:

I work in the NHS not patient facing. Our Trust has said all non frontline staff are likely to be offered the vaccine next week. (1000 staff have already been done which is brilliant!)

I'm a fit and healthy 39 year old with no underlying health conditions. I am not an anti vaxxer however I am concerned about the lack of long term research that has understandably not been able to be done on the vaccine and have made an informed decision that I probably won't have it. I'd prefer my dose to go to someone more vulnerable. I believe this should be my choice.
My colleague is 62 and is all for having the vaccine which is great. I said I probably wouldn't as it doesn't affect transmission only the severity of the illness. Now she isn't speaking to me.
AIBU?

(Also given the amount of setbacks and govt lies/omissions in the last 10 months I wouldn't be at all surprised if the vaccine isn't the silver bullet we've been told to expect. The way things are going I can see is in the same situation in 12 months time).

One of my previous jobs was writing about medical errors

Who for, Take a Break?

I don't think anyone will be forced to be vaccinated but If you are going to behave in a very anti-social way and neglect your responsibility to others, then be prepared to face disapproval if not avoidance.
I wouldn't want to be anywhere near you on practical and moral grounds.

@IceIceBebe

I agree. The scientists involved in the vaccine aren't humans who could have made a mistake. They are definitely 100% right in everything they do and we should trust them entirely with our health, no questions asked. Anything to avoid a virus that, if you get it, you are almost guaranteed to survive

THAT'S what you took from my post? Way to prove my point!! You in particular are complete incapable of doing your own research.....

I'm not almost guranteed to survive, should I get it, but thanks for caring about those less healthy than you

I care about those less healthy than me, that's why I have to sacrifice my children's education and my own wellbeing, to protect them.

If they want me to personally risk my own health, that's a big fat NO. I've done what I can, I'm not doing any more. If they're not willing to allow the world to continue as normal because they're worried about risk, I'm not willing to be injected because I'm worried about risk. Both of our worries are valid and I don't become completely and totally subject to their needs. I don't think they would expect that either.

@IceIceBebe

One of my previous jobs was writing about medical errors

Who for, Take a Break?

What a sensible comment, well done.

I see that wasn't a no.

I really don't get why people who are vulnerable get to shut down the entire country, deprive children of an education, destroy lives and businesses because they're afraid of a risk, but people who don't want to take the risk of a vaccine are terrible people?

Chances are if you get covid you'll be fine.
Chances are if you get the vaccine you'll be fine.

However, if you don't want to take the risk with covid, so be it.
If I don't want to take the risk with the vaccine, that is also my choice.

The needs of one group of people does not override the needs of others entirely.

Wait a mo!

he thing is that we don't know. If you're willing to take the gamble, fill your boots. There is no evidence whatsoever that for me, personally, that gamble is worth it. With your job history you know that no evidence is not actually evidence! Black Swan theory, can't prove a negative and all that!

I have pretty much zero chance of dying from covid so even a 0.01% chance of negative outcomes from the vaccine is too much. FOr you as an individual. Vaccines are NEVER about the individual.

What would be worse is to accept that negative outcome and still get covid, which is also a possibility. Again, a possibility with every single vaccine ever!

Too many variables, too much uncertainty. True! But that's what we pay the Public Health experts for! At some point you do have to act...

... actually you don't. You can just sit back and ponder the imponderable and let everyone else around you act. That would work too!

You can make that choice, for whatever reasons you choose. But you do have to expect to be challenged on them! No matter what your job history.

As an aside, I used to write up pathologist notes for publication. Truly scary!

@IceIceBebe

I see that wasn't a no.

Sorry I didn't think you were stupid enough for that to be a genuine question. Clearly I was wrong. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but you took all the doubt away!

I did not write about medical errors for take a break.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

I really don't get why people who are vulnerable get to shut down the entire country, deprive children of an education, destroy lives and businesses because they're afraid of a risk, but people who don't want to take the risk of a vaccine are terrible people?

Chances are if you get covid you'll be fine.
Chances are if you get the vaccine you'll be fine.

However, if you don't want to take the risk with covid, so be it.
If I don't want to take the risk with the vaccine, that is also my choice.

The needs of one group of people does not override the needs of others entirely.

Really? That's what you think is the reasoning behind what is happening?

I'm with you OP.
I am actively pro-vaccination, but think in the case of Covid that it would actually be better to give it more quickly to the hysterical if there is any leeway to do so. As an over 50s woman, I'll be offered one at some point but seeing as I'm not overweight - and have already had it - the risk to me is tiny so I would rather "donate" my vaccine shot to someone who wants it.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Wait a mo!

he thing is that we don't know. If you're willing to take the gamble, fill your boots. There is no evidence whatsoever that for me, personally, that gamble is worth it. With your job history you know that no evidence is not actually evidence! Black Swan theory, can't prove a negative and all that!

I have pretty much zero chance of dying from covid so even a 0.01% chance of negative outcomes from the vaccine is too much. FOr you as an individual. Vaccines are NEVER about the individual.

What would be worse is to accept that negative outcome and still get covid, which is also a possibility. Again, a possibility with every single vaccine ever!

Too many variables, too much uncertainty. True! But that's what we pay the Public Health experts for! At some point you do have to act...

... actually you don't. You can just sit back and ponder the imponderable and let everyone else around you act. That would work too!

You can make that choice, for whatever reasons you choose. But you do have to expect to be challenged on them! No matter what your job history.

As an aside, I used to write up pathologist notes for publication. Truly scary!

I, as an individual, would get the vaccine and I, as an individual, will have whatever the outcome is for that. So the argument that it's not about the individual makes no sense.

I agree that no evidence is not actually evidence. However, more testing can be done, it just hasn't been. Therefore, not enough evidence has been gathered in my view.

Others who disagree with me can go ahead and be injected. I'm not stopping them.

I genuinely don't understand your comment @CuriousaboutSamphire

@TheDailyCarbunkle

I really don't get why people who are vulnerable get to shut down the entire country, deprive children of an education, destroy lives and businesses because they're afraid of a risk, but people who don't want to take the risk of a vaccine are terrible people?

Chances are if you get covid you'll be fine.
Chances are if you get the vaccine you'll be fine.

However, if you don't want to take the risk with covid, so be it.
If I don't want to take the risk with the vaccine, that is also my choice.

The needs of one group of people does not override the needs of others entirely.

Very well put. Goes to the crux of the lack of sense and debate around the whole issue of Covid.

I agree. The scientists involved in the vaccine aren't humans who could have made a mistake. They are definitely 100% right in everything they do and we should trust them entirely with our health, no questions asked. Anything to avoid a virus that, if you get it, you are almost guaranteed to survive.

Hardly guaranteed, if you're over 80 or have underlying health issues. 75,000 deaths proves that, doesn't it? Over 300,000 in the US. So that was a daft thing to say, as you don't know who else is on the thread. They won't all be young and healthy, that's for sure.

And if you survive (as yes, the vast majority of people will, there's the risk of long Covid. Sorry for banging on about it, but it really annoys me, people being so dismissive about the risk of Covid faced by people who aren't young and healthy. Very much an 'I'm all right, Jack' attitude there.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

I genuinely don't understand your comment *@CuriousaboutSamphire*

Which one? That I can't believe you think that the country is at a stand still just to save the lives of vulnerable people?

@Mittens030869

I agree. The scientists involved in the vaccine aren't humans who could have made a mistake. They are definitely 100% right in everything they do and we should trust them entirely with our health, no questions asked. Anything to avoid a virus that, if you get it, you are almost guaranteed to survive.

Hardly guaranteed, if you're over 80 or have underlying health issues. 75,000 deaths proves that, doesn't it? Over 300,000 in the US. So that was a daft thing to say, as you don't know who else is on the thread. They won't all be young and healthy, that's for sure.

And if you survive (as yes, the vast majority of people will, there's the risk of long Covid. Sorry for banging on about it, but it really annoys me, people being so dismissive about the risk of Covid faced by people who aren't young and healthy. Very much an 'I'm all right, Jack' attitude there.

For elderly people with health issues, the risk of the vaccine may outweigh the risk of covid.

But for people whose risk is practically non-existent, any risk at all from the vaccine means that taking the vaccine essentially gives you nothing but risk. If you're willing to take that risk, go ahead. I'm not. I get to choose what risks I want to take, just like teachers won't risk being in a classroom.

No of course it's not at a standstill just to save the lives of vulnerable people @CuriousaboutSamphire, it's at a standstill because the health system has no disaster plan at all and in the nine months that the government had to put together a disaster plan they did nothing.

I was responding to claims that if I didn't get a vaccine I didn't care about vulnerable people. My argument is that vulnerable people can't expect me to risk my health when they won't risk their health. It goes both ways.

So... what do you suggest we ALL do?

We can't ALL let others take the vaccine whilst we decide it isn't safe enough for us.

I was responding to claims that if I didn't get a vaccine I didn't care about vulnerable people. That wasn't a comment I had made...

My argument is that vulnerable people can't expect me to risk my health when they won't risk their health. It goes both ways. That is so mangled! There's so little logic there!

We can't ALL let others take the vaccine whilst we decide it isn't safe enough for us

Carbuncle wants the rest of us to take it so that she can check the data and then see if its safe enough for her.
What can you expect from someone who says My argument is that vulnerable people can't expect me to risk my health when they won't risk their health. It goes both ways

Reader, it does not go both ways (in a civilised society).

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I was responding to claims that if I didn't get a vaccine I didn't care about vulnerable people. That wasn't a comment I had made...

My argument is that vulnerable people can't expect me to risk my health when they won't risk their health. It goes both ways. That is so mangled! There's so little logic there!

I know it wasn't a comment you made.

If my children's teachers won't stand in a classroom because they are afraid of risk, I have to accept that.

If I won't be injected with a substance created with minimal testing because I don't feel the benefit outweighs the risk, then others also have to accept that.

My fear of risk is no less legitimate than a teacher's fear of risk.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

I don't know your age, but there are a lot of women aged between 30 and 60 (the youngest I know of is 28) who are now suffering from long Covid. You'll see that if you read the long Covid thread. We're alive, yes, but for a lot of us life as we knew it appears to have changed completely over the last year. Hopefully this will turn out to be temporary but obviously we have no way of knowing that.

There's such a dismissive attitude every time this is mentioned, but, although it will be a minority of people who end up with long Covid, but there's no way of knowing who is likely to end up like that. And a lot of the sufferers were fit and healthy beforehand and with no underlying conditions. It really isn't just about the risk of death.

I haven't been offered the vaccine yet. It's kind of academic for me, as I already have long Covid, so it won't turn the clock back. But I will take it, as I really don't want to risk being reinfected or transmitting the virus to anyone else.

[quote Mittens030869]@TheDailyCarbunkle

I don't know your age, but there are a lot of women aged between 30 and 60 (the youngest I know of is 28) who are now suffering from long Covid. You'll see that if you read the long Covid thread. We're alive, yes, but for a lot of us life as we knew it appears to have changed completely over the last year. Hopefully this will turn out to be temporary but obviously we have no way of knowing that.

There's such a dismissive attitude every time this is mentioned, but, although it will be a minority of people who end up with long Covid, but there's no way of knowing who is likely to end up like that. And a lot of the sufferers were fit and healthy beforehand and with no underlying conditions. It really isn't just about the risk of death.

I haven't been offered the vaccine yet. It's kind of academic for me, as I already have long Covid, so it won't turn the clock back. But I will take it, as I really don't want to risk being reinfected or transmitting the virus to anyone else. [/quote]
That's fair enough - you feel that the risk to you is greater than the risk of the virus. Chances are, you are right.

I want more evidence - more testing, more examination of data.

I may get covid and die, I may get covid and suffer long term with it. That's true of any virus. The far more likely outcome is that I get covid and am absolutely fine, like many millions of other people.

I won't choose to be vaccinated when I don't consider the possible benefit to outweigh the possible risk. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future but the current evidence isn't enough for me.

Sorry, I meant to say that, for me, taking the vaccine won't just be about protecting myself (I probably have some immunity), but it will also mean that I'm less likely to transmit it to other people.

It's also a way of our lives going back to some sort of normality, which I'm sure we all really want.

@TheDailyCarbunkle That's why I asked you which of MY comments you didn't understand!

I was a teacher. DSis still is. She is in a rural primary hub and has worked all through since last March with very few breaks. All through the usual holdiys. She had a week at Christmas and is back again now, doing what she has been doing for the last 9 months.

Don't presume to know what all teachers are thinking or doing! It is insulting to those who have worked to their own detriment to keep schools open for those kids who are vulnerable, have key workers for parents etc.

There is no ranking of fears, it's not a competition. But if ou make certain statements on a public forum then they are going to be discussed. Like:

If I won't be injected with a substance created with minimal testing because I don't feel the benefit outweighs the risk, then others also have to accept that. MINIMAL TESTING... that is the minimum needed to ascertain efficacy, safety etc. WIth your job history you know that!