Why is the whole country in lockdown?

[nevereverplease]

Millions of children are having their education interrupted severely, suffering mental health problems and people are losing their businesses and livelihoods for a disease unlikely to affect them.

Why can it not be that instead, vulnerable people shield (which most are doing anyway) instead of everyone?

People I’m sure will come with the counter argument to say it’s not fair leaving people on their own etc. They could still have a support bubble and it would mean that the whole country isn’t suffering severely as a result.

Is it not logical to have fewer people be locked down as opposed to everyone? Surely that’s just basic logic. I would rather no one suffer from this horrible disease but at the moment it feels like it's 'everyone suffer' because that's the 'fair' way to do it.

Could we not have used the money from furlough and all the other grants to fund the vulnerable whilst shielding.

I say this because 388 people have died aged under 60 with no underlying health conditions. If we go by 34% mortality rate of people admitted to ICU then we are talking about 1141 people under 60 with no underlying health issues needing ICU treatment Since March.

@Northernsoulgirl45 that's an abject failure of the system. My dd with an EHCP in mainstream was in 100% of last term. Children with more specialist needs have been dumped.

Thank you @PastMyBestBeforeDate
Much of it was due to CAMHS services or lack of. The school and LA behaved appallingly too.
We are getting there now but it feels like you are constantly having to fight.

@Remmy123

Not all hospitals are full and busting. Media do exaggerate things you know.

They are

@Hearwego

I didn’t catch the whole conversation but on LBC last week someone made the counter argument about lockdowns. He said even countries that had lockdowns, people still died, likewise countries that didn’t lockdown people also died. In his opinion , he couldn’t say that locking down would lower the death rate.

Let’s see it like this- we all locked down in March. For months. Stayed home, kept 2 meters apart.Yet hear we are 10 months later in a worse position.
Technically if we all locked down in March like I mentioned, the virus wouldn’t have kept spreading- in theory. Yet it did.
So the point is locking down only defers the spread.
If we didn’t have a vaccine , I wonder if people would want to still lockdown, with no light at the end of the tunnel???

This thinking is madness though. It's like this:

February: oh no, there's a hole in the boat. Better go slowly so we can get home. Maybe just stay away from it a bit and it will go away.
March: Oh no, it's getting worse. Better start baling out some water. Here, grab a bucket.
April: (deniers) But holding this bucket so long is an infringement of my rights. I'm already bored of this bucket.
(Non deniers) Just keep going. We're getting there.
May: it's getting better. The shore is in sight. Maybe we can ease off a little bit and enjoy the sunshine. And maybe even put the buckets down for a break.
Everyone: good idea!
September: has anyone noticed that the hole is getting worse again?
October: look guys, we're going to need to bale out again. Shore is in sight but we've got a way to go.
(Deniers) so all that work before back in march and April didn't work!
(Non deniers, patiently) well it did work, because otherwise now we'd be sunk.
November: ok this is getting bad. We need all hands on deck with buckets please.
(Deniers) but you are infringing on my rights and it doesn't even do anything. What's the point?
(Non deniers) Well, the point is to get back to shore without sinking.
December: oh crap this is getting worse. More buckets please. We can't stop baling out now. And look, shore is just over the horizon. keep going chaps.
(Deniers) I'm bored of this. (Slams bucket down and sits down)
(Other deniers) All this is doing is ruining lives. Can't you see that? What's the point of it?
(Other deniers) we could just swim back. Who cares about the non swimmers, they don't count anyway.
(Non deniers) we can't swim back. It's too far even for the best swimmers. keep going, not long now.
January: oh crap this is still getting worse. We're sinking because those deniers won't pick up their buckets and the hole keeps getting bigger. What shall we do?
(Deniers) tell you what, let's throw all the non swimmers over the side. That will mean all the swimmers can crack on with life.
(Non deniers, sighing) but the hole will still let water in and then we'll have even less people with buckets.
(Deniers) I know what! Let's do what that other boat over there is doing. They didn't even pick up a bucket and they're fine.
(Non deniers) That's because they patched up their hole straight away and we dilly dallied.

Etc...

why is the whole country in lockdown

Because hospitals are full. They are shipping ICU patients around the country.

If you family member had a serious illness or car accident where do you think they will be treated if the beds are all full?

You are stupid if you can't be bothered to look at the news OP

@Madhairday surely your very basic, easy to understand description of the problem we've faced and are still facing must be understood by the hard of thinking. If this doesn't work then we really are sunk.

This sums it up -

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2020/09/29/covid-the-libertarian-population-immunity-strategy-is-wrong-headed-dangerous/

It's interesting that posters think it's ableist to suggest the vulnerable should isolate. Were these same posters arguing about the discrimination against people who live alone during the first lockdown? Or are some groups apparently ok to isolate?

What about the ableism inherent in the restrictions? All the people with mental health issues who cannot cope without seeing people? The people who have missed out on other aspects of life due to disability and now have nothing?

I am disabled through autism, and a lot more disabled since all this started. When the first lockdown hit, I saw all the non-disabled people hunkering down with their families, something I will probably now never have due to playing catch-up in my life due to undiagnosed autism and now not allowed to meet a partner. I was trying to get back into work but now competition for jobs, is ridiculously high, there's no chance of volunteer work/work experience to improve my situation, and I'm so messed up by the isolation and loss of hope that I'm further from the workplace and much more obviously disabled/incapable. On top of losing the relationships I had with/looking after friends' children. It's the restrictions plus disability that have made life so hopeless. So it stings a bit to hear people who don't even normally have cause to think of themselves as disabled (with jobs and families) claim it's ableist to make them isolate but apparently fine for other disabled people to be isolated and have their lives ruined. Not to mention the non-disabled who live alone or won't have a chance to have a family now or have lost businesses etc. Why is it so inhumane for people actually vulnerable to covid to be alone with one support person/whole family isolated but apparently fine for others to go through the same?

Good article doireally - comprehensive and clear.

To add to my post, before someone misses the point - I'm not necessarily saying isolating the vulnerable is workable, for other reasons. But you can't say it's not fair to treat one group like that, whilst doing it to another group!

@TiredAndBonkers I'm so sorry for what you've been going through. It sounds like it's been really tough.

Nobody is saying that, though. No one is saying it's ok for one group to isolate and not another (well, actually they are, but that's the anti lockdowners who think the vulnerable should 'just shield' while everyone else gets on with it - see article above for really good reasons why that doesn't work.)

But nobody who is saying that the language around all of this is ableist is saying that some people should be fine to isolate. I think you've got it a bit upside down. What we are saying is that using language such as 'the 377 healthy' can lead to a slippery slope of the deserving and the undeserving - a slope already there due to austerity. What it makes us feel like is lesser - that if many of us have conditions not counted in that 377 - and that includes you, with autism - then are we less worthy of counting when it comes to covid deaths? What we are asking people to do is examine their language and inner prejudice against those who are sick and disabled in any way.

Please don't turn this into disability top trumps either. I talk about ableist language because I am disabled and have been all my life, with chronic degenerative illness. Just because I have a family doesn't make me less so. And I did have an income, but lost it due to covid - but it is what it is. We need to contain it in order that services are not overwhelmed.

When we speak of ableism we mean everyone who is disabled, and we are concerned about how a long term strategy of avoiding tighter measures will affect everyone in every situation. So rather than is saying it's fine for others to isolate as long as we don't have to (which makes no sense, as we are advocating that everyone is under tighter measures), we are saying that we don't want anyone to have to isolate in the long term, so let's get this thing sorted and suppressed.

I sincerely hope that times are better for you soon.

Is this post for real? The lack of common sense is scary. Vulnerable people can shield, but they have family that wont or cant. They have family that will be expected to go to work or school, and will inevitably end up bringing back home meaning their precautions were all for nothing. No one wants to be the reason their family member gets critically sick, I dont know about you op but I want to protect my parents.

But if this is a forever virus that mutates itself making vaccines ineffective what’s the answer?
Lockdown forever? The world would collapse? Surely no one would want to live like this forever?
If covid cannot be cured as it mutates, surely we at some point have to live with it?
How many people will die from poverty ,or abuse,domestic violence, mental health suicide or cancers?
If we had permanent lockdowns the only people working would be the NHS and other services that could work from home.
I’d hazard a guess that the majority of people can’t work from home....
There wouldn’t be any tax payers left to survive!!

**I dont know about you op but I want to protect my parents.

Maybe so but how long would you be prepared to not see them for? Would you sacrifice never seeing them again, if this virus just mutates? Lockdown forever?

@Hearwego

But if this is a forever virus that mutates itself making vaccines ineffective what’s the answer? Lockdown forever? The world would collapse? Surely no one would want to live like this forever? If covid cannot be cured as it mutates, surely we at some point have to live with it? How many people will die from poverty ,or abuse,domestic violence, mental health suicide or cancers? If we had permanent lockdowns the only people working would be the NHS and other services that could work from home. I’d hazard a guess that the majority of people can’t work from home.... There wouldn’t be any tax payers left to survive!!

You do know the flu vaccine changes every year don't you? I'd imagine it'll be the same with the Covid one, it's not forever, it's temporary.

I dont think that deaths should be reported as pre existing or not

Especially as it appears that just about everyone is in the pre existing category

Is there a reason for it does anyone know?

Apart from anything else, the ‘whole country’ isn’t locked down. Some people on here seem to forget that not everyone lives in London

Shielding the vulnerable is impossible. To do this, you would have to accept a (large) degree of deaths. and serious illness. I know lockdowns cause deaths too. But it seems wrong to say 'we will protect you' when...we can't really.

If it was a feasible thing, we would have done it and it would be over now. Its not possible to do. Obviously many people would prefer it this way than whats going on. But..its not possible. Those advocating for this at this stage need to realise this, and maybe admit that really, they dont care much about 'the vulnerable', or think its a decent 'tradeoff' so to speak.

**You do know the flu vaccine changes every year don't you? I'd imagine it'll be the same with the Covid one, it's not forever, it's temporary.

We don’t know yet do we? We have to hope so.
I’m worried about people who aren’t key workers who may not be furloughed. People on furlough still suffer financially as they aren’t on full pay, especially lower paid workers.

@TiredAndBonkers I am sorry you are struggling. I have 2 dds with varying degrees of Autism. One diagnosed and one in the process of diagnosis. I also have an ECV dh and siblings who live alone.
Lockdown was incredibly difficult of all of us for different reasons. ilI spent a lot of time supporting from afar my single siblings despite homeschooling pushing me to almost breaking point.
I think the most abelist point is the way deaths of people with pre existing conditions are discounted from the tally with the only 388 nonsense.
Shielding was also very different from lockdown. For those first few months dh didn't even leave the house. He didn't even go to the supermarket to get human interaction outside the home. No daily walk allowed at the start so extremely punishing for those who live alone And you know what that is exactly what some people want for the elderly and ECV. Hell the number of posts I have seen recently complaining about the elderly being seen in supermarkets.
Shielding is very different to lockdown and I don't particularly find it abelist more unworkable.

Stopped reading at page 4.
To answer your questions..

Do you think the current system works?

No, clearly it doesn’t.

If not, what do you think we could do to change it?

Improve track, trace and quarantine.
Make schools safer.
Make sure more people follow guidelines.
Clearly debunk the rubbish found through Us4Them type groups, great barrington declaration anti-science groups.
Have a spokesperson who can give people confidence in decisions made, rather than the current set up which relies on waffling, u-turns and blame.

Long term - bring back critical thinking. It’s sadly lacking right now in so many.

@Madhairday
Brilliant analogy- though (from reading certain threads on here) I'd add a subgroup of those who refuse to even touch the bailing bucket and then bleat on that bailing doesn't work. And that they can't bear the thought of any more bailing so won't participate this time round either.

Madhairday So rather than is saying it's fine for others to isolate as long as we don't have to (which makes no sense, as we are advocating that everyone is under tighter measures)

But tighter measures mean some people are isolated, whilst you are not because you have a family. People are objecting to the idea the vulnerable should isolate, instead supporting restrictions that mean other groups are isolated instead.