Why is the whole country in lockdown?

[nevereverplease]

Millions of children are having their education interrupted severely, suffering mental health problems and people are losing their businesses and livelihoods for a disease unlikely to affect them.

Why can it not be that instead, vulnerable people shield (which most are doing anyway) instead of everyone?

People I’m sure will come with the counter argument to say it’s not fair leaving people on their own etc. They could still have a support bubble and it would mean that the whole country isn’t suffering severely as a result.

Is it not logical to have fewer people be locked down as opposed to everyone? Surely that’s just basic logic. I would rather no one suffer from this horrible disease but at the moment it feels like it's 'everyone suffer' because that's the 'fair' way to do it.

Could we not have used the money from furlough and all the other grants to fund the vulnerable whilst shielding.

I say this because 388 people have died aged under 60 with no underlying health conditions. If we go by 34% mortality rate of people admitted to ICU then we are talking about 1141 people under 60 with no underlying health issues needing ICU treatment Since March.

@BillMasen I feel as though we should try and resume some form of normality (normality I do not mean getting rid of every single rule that's exists I just mean not crippling businesses and shutting down society so that peoples mental health suffers) OR go stricter yes.

By stricter I do not think school closures should be included I feel very strongly about that.

But yes stricter measures as in, more fines for people rule breaking and other measures etc,

It's the fact we are doing a halfway house that frustrates me. I'd rather all or nothing (by nothing to clarify AGAIN - I don't mean getting rid of every restriction before someone tries to twist my words).

I just have no idea why some posters are so disgustingly rude. They must be insecure so see it as a way to empower themselves or feel superior in some way for behaving like twits and it pisses me off.

I always thought short sharp government information films were the way to go rather than the slides Whitty et al kept showing. I am used to seeing slides like this but they were too small and complicated and without wanting to insult anyone the majority of the UK just won’t understand them.

Target certain groups - young people, different cultures etc to ensure that the message is hard hitting.

This "new more infectious strain" reads like Blair's dodgy dossier on weapons of mass destruction, conveniently timed to scare the plebs into not mixing at Christmas.

Conspiracy theory nonsense, the new variant is real, has been found in at least half a dozen countries, whose scientists have sent the genome sequencing to international databases, including Gisaid in Germany and Nextstrain in Switzerland.

[quote nevereverplease]@AntiHop how the hell is it offensive?? FFS get a GRIP

Honestly, mumsnet is the strangest place - how have you managed to completely twist my words and interpret my post as saying I don't care about vulnerable people.

You have issues. [/quote]
I agree with Antihop.

Just think it through. Think of all your family members, friends, colleagues. Many of them will have underlying health conditions such as asthma, high blood pressure, auto immune conditions, autism, mental health difficulties or even obesity.
It is as though you are saying they don't matter as they were at deaths door anyway, when in reality most are working people living full and useful lives with a normal life expectancy. I know you don't mean that but that is how it comes across.

Then there is the issue that only a small minority or those with underlying health conditions are on the shielded list. The majority have to get on with things as normal.

Op we are not being rude. We are simply just so weary of being discounted because we are vulnerable, of being told we don't count because we are going to die soon anyway, of the starkly ableist narrative that has taken shape through all of this. For us it is like seeing a paradigm shift in society and it is not a good one; it is one whereby eugenics becomes more of a possibility as people are counted by their productivity, length of life and condition of life, and then seen as expendable if they are over a certain age or live with a condition (and it turns out that could be a condition that does nothing whatsoever to life expectancy) but even if it does, even if, like me, my condition worsens and shortens my life, it's highly offensive to be repeatedly told my life is not worth counting in the statistics.

Op you are being offensive. I know you think you are not and that it is us who are rude, but please take a good look around at what everyone is saying and listen to the experience of others. If a black person said you are being racist would you tell them they are being rude and offensive? No. You would listen and adjust your behaviour. So if a disabled person tels you you are being ableist and offensive then I hope you would listen and think again.

And that's what we are telling you.

I agree with you OP and so does everyone I know in RL.
In reality most people dont follow the rules anymore, just look outside and on the roads, tons of famillies in the cars today going places. They are bored, depressed and whatever, so it would be better to get them in work and in schools rather than friends houses, playgrounds and shops.

@Madhairday if you read some of the posts, you would see there have been some very horrible comments. If you don't call them rude I don't know what you call them.

I actually don't know why you or anyone else here has assumed I don't have underlying health conditions? I also don't know why you've made an assumption I'm not BAME?

I'm also very confused as to why someone shielding means I am suggesting they don't matter? Wouldn't you shield because you DO matter and want to be safe? The interpretations and assumptions on this thread are astounding.

Like you say, I obviously must be way off in how I word things because I'm baffled at how my post comes across like that but I'm clearly in the minority so I'll take your feedback.

I agree, but you know what, you're 'fighting' a losing battle on here. So many people have bought the hysteria. MN isn't really an accurate picture of RL anyway, thank goodness.

I think most people are finding posts like this so frustrating and not at all in touch of reality. I have a teenage son who is high risk, not only do I need to balance his health risk, I’ve still got to try and get him a decent education, try and make sure his mental health doesn’t suffer seeing as he’s spent so long in isolation, make sure the rest of us who have to go to work and school don’t put him at further risk and then I read posts saying let the vulnerable shield and everyone else live their life and it quite honestly makes me want to rip someone’s head off. Not aimed at you personally but throughout this pandemic it’s felt like the elderly and vulnerable don’t particularly matter to people, my son matters, people’s 80 year old nan matters, we can’t just ignore the huge amount of people who are already struggling throughout this.

@southeastdweller

I agree, but you know what, you're 'fighting' a losing battle on here. So many people have bought the hysteria. MN isn't really an accurate picture of RL anyway, thank goodness.

You may think the OP is fighting a losing battle here in MN, but the sad fact is that we are all fighting a losing battle against this virus IRL because of people like you; your denial that this is serious, the belief that the vulnerable shielding will be a cure (leaving aside the horrific ableism in that narrative) and that the application of your own self-appointed common-sense is a better response than a medically guided one.

I really despise the attitude of people like you and the OP. You do not know better than the experts - and neither do all the fuckwits continually breaking the rules as “they know best”. Your ignorance and selfishness is hurting us all - and the cause of the lockdowns. I blame you.

“..... would actually rather agree with stricter measures than the current situation.”

You agree then, nevereverplease, that we are not in fact all in lockdown as your title suggests?

*You may think the OP is fighting a losing battle here in MN, but the sad fact is that we are all fighting a losing battle against this virus IRL because of people like you; your denial that this is serious, the belief that the vulnerable shielding will be a cure (leaving aside the horrific ableism in that narrative) and that the application of your own self-appointed common-sense is a better response than a medically guided one.

I really despise the attitude of people like you and the OP. You do not know better than the experts - and neither do all the fuckwits continually breaking the rules as “they know best”. Your ignorance and selfishness is hurting us all - and the cause of the lockdowns. I blame you.*

Well said.

MN isn't really an accurate picture of RL anyway, thank goodness.

Totally agree, thank goodness for sure.

@Almostslimjim what makes you think because I disagree I've been breaking rules?

So pathetic.

I think the reason people are getting rather irritating with the whole “shield the vulnerable only” narrative, is that, ableism aside, that those 388 people who’ve died without underlying health conditions, are not in fact the only people who’ve died who aren’t in the list of those who are extremely clinically vulnerable. When you look at the ONS data, what they’re actually saying is 388 people who have never been ill at any point in their life with anything more than a self limiting illness... that’s a pretty broad spectrum of “underlying health problems”.

But sure, by all means, kid yourself that everyone who’s died is expendable and would’ve died in the very near future anyway,

@nevereverplease it’s 2021 , 2021 and they still are people as stupid as you walking among us. Vulnerable people have children in schools, they have jobs, they need care etc etc etc.
Vulnerable people cannot be shipped of yo an island to grow their own crops and run their own hospitals.
You would have to isolate around 40 % of the population plus healthy health workers and teachers.

Please explain to me how I shield in a way that keeps me safe.
I'm in my 40s and in the most at risk group.
I have teenage kids in secondary school and DH is a secondary teacher.

We do what we can. I self isolate within the house when there are cases in their schools. But the only way of keeping me healthy is to minimise the community infection rates and thereby reduce the risk that my kids/husband give it to me. Or that I pick it up on my weekly hospital check ups.

The only way of truly shielding people like me is to move us to separate accommodation and provide no medical care. Is this your plan?

nevereverplease

Where did I say you haven't been following the rules?

[quote nevereverplease]@DontBeShelfish I'm surprised at how disgusting and rude some people can be. With that I mean you.

I'm not sure why you think it acceptable to speak to people like that? I've not offended anyone here or been rude - so how dare you. [/quote]
I'm sick to death of seeing threads started like this one, by people just as selfish as you, proclaiming their words are being twisted or they're posting in good faith. Your ableism is showing. Put it away dear.

I'm 100000% with you OP. Peoples mental health, businesses and education are suffering far more than Covid could ever do to the non vulnerable

@nevereverplease - thanks for acknowledging, always appreciated.

TBH, I don’t think there’s any getting away from the fact that, on a forum, all of us behind keyboards, it’s going to get heated.

On the one hand - those who are vulnerable/shielded/have underlying conditions are going to take your tone as quite sweeping and uncaring - whether you meant it that way or not. This group will push back on those who have an opposing view.

Others, who, feel that the measures are wrong because of the severe impact on freedoms and livelihoods are going to going to robustly argue against the group above.

Then, in the middle are going to be large proportion of people who have concerns from both sides - who will argue one point on one thread and vice versa.

Everyone is fed up with it. So yes, people are probably going to come across as rude at some point - on pretty much every thread on here.

FWIW, I think it’s probably obvious which “side” my butt is parked. I think a fair number of people have bent/flouted the guidelines in really selfish ways. But I’m not of the opinion that they should be labelled with some of the phrases I see bandied about.

This stance doesn’t mean that I’m “frothing”, salivating” or “wetting myself” at the thought of stricter measures - which are phrases I see on here daily, along with all of the references which are so gross I won’t actually name. I also don’t want to see the army on the streets/checking shopping baskets or delivering rations to homes!

The above is not directed at you, am not saying you’ve said those things. But these heated discussions bring something out in all of us. I’m annoyed with myself for some of my retorts, just as I’m really pissed off with some of the complete shite I see posted here.

Anyway, at least I feel better for getting that off my chest. No doubt I’ll be back tomorrow to get annoyed at another thread!

Have a packet

@wanderings

One reason why some members of the public are not taking the virus seriously is because of the "cry wolf" effect: the media always exaggerates things to monstrous proportions, and sometimes the government does as well. The more cynical members of the public know that things are being exaggerated, and believe that the more the media bangs on about something, the more likely it is to be exaggerated. Since the government's only method of persuading the public seems to be by scaremongering and confusion, as well as Dominic Cummings not being sacked on the spot, people have lost respect for the government, and some are disobeying the government on principle.

The government need to have a think about the way they're treating the public, and show some fucking respect, if they want respect from the public. This "new more infectious strain" reads like Blair's dodgy dossier on weapons of mass destruction, conveniently timed to scare the plebs into not mixing at Christmas.

And my above sentiments of “understanding” get wiped out in one swipe when I keep reading this shite!

I think the question should be why the hell aren't we in lockdown

I didn’t catch the whole conversation but on LBC last week someone made the counter argument about lockdowns. He said even countries that had lockdowns, people still died, likewise countries that didn’t lockdown people also died. In his opinion , he couldn’t say that locking down would lower the death rate.

Let’s see it like this- we all locked down in March. For months. Stayed home, kept 2 meters apart.Yet hear we are 10 months later in a worse position.
Technically if we all locked down in March like I mentioned, the virus wouldn’t have kept spreading- in theory. Yet it did.
So the point is locking down only defers the spread.
If we didn’t have a vaccine , I wonder if people would want to still lockdown, with no light at the end of the tunnel???