AIBU to stand up for children and parents...

[alwaysraining123]

... and say that closing schools is not an option. Some observations.

(1) millions of children will suffer poorer mental health, educational deficits and be at risk of physical harm.
(2) if schools close now the government will struggle to get them back open.
(3) the unions are playing a highly political game preying shamelessly on people’s fears.
(4) online learning is of no use for most of the primary school years. Parents basically need to be available all day to support children.
(5) more parents are going to find themselves unable to work causing more financial hardship. This won’t affect your middle class sahps or people who can work from home as much- there are people who actually have to go out of their house to earn a living.
(6) if you’re parent and you’re worried you can keep your child at home.
(7) educational transmission of the virus is low and infection control standards can be escalated where needed.

Whatever is done we need to place maintaining educational provision for children at the heart of it. We need to make it work...there’s no other option.

Do sit down OP.

TheEchtMeaningOfChristmas

It's also the term teachers themselves are using on these, many many interminable, teacher threads. They are the ones calling it a "walkout". Look it up. Infact they insisted to me it's a "walkout", when I called it a strike
"No no flaxmeadow, it's not a strike, it's a walkout"

@Flaxmeadow

TheEchtMeaningOfChristmas

It's also the term teachers themselves are using on these, many many interminable, teacher threads. They are the ones calling it a "walkout". Look it up. Infact they insisted to me it's a "walkout", when I called it a strike
"No no flaxmeadow, it's not a strike, it's a walkout"

So a big boy did it and ran away?

What interminable teacher threads are you on about that deal with industrial action? The NEU, etc only proposed all this less than 48 hours ago.

So a big boy did it and ran away?

Is this some kind of school yard reference? Not sure what you mean

But anyway, that's what they say it is, a "walkout" apparently, not a "strike. It's on the "Head Teacher Unions Begin Legal Proceedings Agaisnt DofE" thread. About around page 18, before and after pages too. It's a right old ding dong, but they insist on "walkout". Got quite militant about it all, inspite of them being so middle class but I guess terminology is important to them, as they said they were teachers "making history".

What interminable teacher threads are you on about that deal with industrial action? The NEU, etc only proposed all this less than 48 hours ago.

There must be about a hundred teacher topic threads on the coronavirus board by now. Are you new here?

I agree OP but I'm afraid alot of the time people who agree with this stay silent as they get shot down for daring to have an opposing opinion.
I'm on the fence - I desperately want schools to stay open as I worry about how damaging it is for children of all ages but I also recognise that the figures are high and therefore accept the argument for closing schools. What I can't really agree with is the thing about teachers safety and it's not right putting them at risk. I'm in no way slagging off teachers but why is their safety any different to other people who work in essential services? What about police, NHS/care staff, prison officers, supermarket workers etc etc - why is it ok for them to continue working but not ok for teachers?
The knock on effects of closing schools is massive as even for people working at home it's not really possible with young children there. I've got 2 young ones and cannot realistically do my job with them home. I've already used all leave in last lockdown so I'll end up having to take unpaid leave resulting in financial hardship.

Like I said I'm on the fence as I do fear this virus and have vulnerable people in my life but I also fear the bigger picture of continued lockdowns and school closures.

What I can't really agree with is the thing about teachers safety and it's not right putting them at risk. I'm in no way slagging off teachers but why is their safety any different to other people who work in essential services? What about police, NHS/care staff, prison officers, supermarket workers etc etc - why is it ok for them to continue working but not ok for teachers?

For goodness sake! Why is this.constantly used as a way to bash teachers?

People need to realise that teachers are trying to put children first. We have been there in rooms of 30 people with no PPE denying and day out. I have watched children test positive and take it home to their families. Schools are a hub for transmission and this then spreads into the wider communities, putting pressure on essential services.

As a teacher, I understand that online learning is not equivalent to in person teaching. I do not want children off school. I do not want the extra pressure of being in school next week (teaching 15 key worker and vulnerable children without adequate support in our Tier 4, closed school) but that is where I will be while also providing online lessons and contacting parents of children who are not engaging in my spare time.

The government have not listened to us. Our hand is now forced. Many teachers will ignore union advice despite knowing that things are impossible.

We want this pandemic over with so that children can get back to the classroom without these constant interuptions. The unions are asking for a sustainable long term plan as opposed to a short reactive one. Nobody wanted to be in this position but we were never listened to.

So OP, belive me when I say that even those of us who agree with the shutting of schools are doing so with children at the heart of it.

The government and media have done an excellent job of making this into an "us and them" situation and we are saying we need to work together to get children in school.

This thread has given me so many laughs this morning (although I don’t think that was the intention).

To the poster who made comments about snow. I’m in the West Mids and it has been so heavy although snow days will be a thing of the last now we can teach live. Going to miss the excitement of a snow day ...

I do fear that the amount of parents taking their children out of school for holidays in the future will me massive as they will get the impression missing a bit of school isnt a big deal.. I know that's not right etc but there are many stupid people around who will see It this way.

@Forgetmenot157

I do fear that the amount of parents taking their children out of school for holidays in the future will me massive as they will get the impression missing a bit of school isnt a big deal.. I know that's not right etc but there are many stupid people around who will see It this way.

They can just get them to fill in a couple of worksheets a week. This counts as remote learning apparently.

This is all a massive pile of shit, isn't it? I don't think anyone really knows what the right thing to do at a societal level is. We don't frame the questions in very stark terms. Which comes first, a 5 year old's right to education or an 85 year old's right to medical care? We could stop treating people over a certain age who test covid positive (the DNR of the spring) and keep schools open. Is that the society we want? I think it depends how long it lasts.

Practically: almost everyone with a skin in this is in an age group where no vaccine is going to be forthcoming. No plans at all to vaccinate most children. And most parents of school age children are under 50 without conditions that render them ECV. So what's the government's long-term plan? All get it, but slowly?

So the real question for me is about timing. It's been ten months of restrictions to ease the pressure on the NHS. Now that we have the vaccine, is this the final push? As others have said, why was so much time wasted in the summer when cases were (look at the seasonality graphs for the other four endemic coronaviruses!) predictably low?

I'd support closing schools for two weeks to get this under control. But it won't, will it?? As always, the government's plan sounds sensible and reasonable, but it's half-baked fantasy. If they close now, they'll be closed until after Easter.

It's very difficult to assess the long-term damage. Most of the economic damage is still hidden by businesses carrying on as shell operations, staff down to part-time hours, on extended furlough etc. I'm an academic at an Oxbridge college. All I can say about admissions is that 30 years of progress in widening access seemed to be undone overnight. I was shocked by the low quality of work/ standard test scores from most state school applicants. My first years who 'hadn't had any contact from the school since March' have also been really struggling.

Hops I share your concerns

We know numbers drop far more slowly than they rise. How low do they have to be to re-open?

YABU.

The staff in schools have just as much right to a safe working environment as anyone else. Other jobs allow their employees to wear PPE; ensure safe distances and avoid crowded spaces that are also poorly ventilated. Put bluntly, staff and kids are being asked to spend all day in the very environment we are all being told is not safe! Just to give a comparison, think of how big the smallest church or crematorium you know is - OK - now think how that compares to your child's classroom. The maximum number of attendees at a funeral is 30 - roughly the same number as an average class. All attendees at a funeral are also told to wear a face covering throughout - and the service lasts an hour at most!

Opening schools back to how they were is nothing short of dangerous. Something has to be done, and you know it's bad when unions are quoting health and safety laws, and the headteachers are looking to take the government to court!

And if it’s long term then some children are excluded for a large part of the last year and a half.

We are still willing to work, either doing remote learning and/or in school working with key worker and vulnerable children. We’re just not prepared to go into an unsafe workplace and put our health at risk under section 44 of health and safety legislation.

Picklespark do you have an indication from union on what the criteria is for a safe work environment?

• eg case level in community / case number in profession / other

@hopsalong

This is all a massive pile of shit, isn't it? I don't think anyone really knows what the right thing to do at a societal level is. We don't frame the questions in very stark terms. Which comes first, a 5 year old's right to education or an 85 year old's right to medical care? We could stop treating people over a certain age who test covid positive (the DNR of the spring) and keep schools open. Is that the society we want? I think it depends how long it lasts.

Practically: almost everyone with a skin in this is in an age group where no vaccine is going to be forthcoming. No plans at all to vaccinate most children. And most parents of school age children are under 50 without conditions that render them ECV. So what's the government's long-term plan? All get it, but slowly?

So the real question for me is about timing. It's been ten months of restrictions to ease the pressure on the NHS. Now that we have the vaccine, is this the final push? As others have said, why was so much time wasted in the summer when cases were (look at the seasonality graphs for the other four endemic coronaviruses!) predictably low?

I'd support closing schools for two weeks to get this under control. But it won't, will it?? As always, the government's plan sounds sensible and reasonable, but it's half-baked fantasy. If they close now, they'll be closed until after Easter.

It's very difficult to assess the long-term damage. Most of the economic damage is still hidden by businesses carrying on as shell operations, staff down to part-time hours, on extended furlough etc. I'm an academic at an Oxbridge college. All I can say about admissions is that 30 years of progress in widening access seemed to be undone overnight. I was shocked by the low quality of work/ standard test scores from most state school applicants. My first years who 'hadn't had any contact from the school since March' have also been really struggling.

That's so interesting, and sad, about how your first years are coping. I felt so bad for our Y13s last year. Two years of hard work without assessment to show their progress by the end (every child I taught was desperate to do an exam and 'prove themselves,' no rites of passage to mark the end of their schooling, no face to face goodbyes with their teachers and then locked down at uni.

For all the teacher bashers on this thread, particularly the pseudo-troll, trust me we care for our students more than you know and care for their education beyond the facility of schools to provide childcare which seems to be the priority at the moment.

I hope it can be made safe far more quickly than Easter. Fingers crossed for our testing equipment turning up tomorrow.

@TheDogsSkivvy

YABU.

The staff in schools have just as much right to a safe working environment as anyone else. Other jobs allow their employees to wear PPE; ensure safe distances and avoid crowded spaces that are also poorly ventilated. Put bluntly, staff and kids are being asked to spend all day in the very environment we are all being told is not safe! Just to give a comparison, think of how big the smallest church or crematorium you know is - OK - now think how that compares to your child's classroom. The maximum number of attendees at a funeral is 30 - roughly the same number as an average class. All attendees at a funeral are also told to wear a face covering throughout - and the service lasts an hour at most!

Opening schools back to how they were is nothing short of dangerous. Something has to be done, and you know it's bad when unions are quoting health and safety laws, and the headteachers are looking to take the government to court!

This sums up the problem nicely. Supermarket workers see 100s of customers for a few minutes each behind a plastic screen. Teachers have no PPE and are breathing the same air as their students for a full hour at a time for consecutive lessons.

Simple solution - provide PPE.

YANBU

Simple solution - provide PPE.

Neurologically not sure if you’re part of NEU but what would be sufficient for safe? Masks yes
Do they go into the detail?

All you people making thread after thread saying Schools must stay open. Petition your local MP to MAKE SCHOOLS SAFE!!!!! TO VACCINATE SCHOOL STAFF!!!!!! If you feel this strongly use the time you spend whinging on mn to be proactive in the right direction that will help.

Er @Kitcat122 vaccinating staff at schools would make staff safe not the pupils.
Happy to petition for that as I would like schools to open ,but let's be clear what we're talking about.

People keep going on about supermarket staff having PPE. Have you actually been in a supermarket, or do you just rely on deliveries to do it for you?

Supermarket workers are coming into close co tact with literally thousands of different people every day. Do people honestly believe that those pathetic pieces of Perspex are protecting anyone. People go on about PPE, hundreds go through supermarkets not wearing a mask, or wearing it under their chin, nose, on their head. Workers are in the aisles, amongst the customers, stacking shelves, cleaning, helping customers. If the virus is airborne it will be in the air in the supermarket, where the staff have to work all day.

People seem to have lost all sense of proportion, you are statistically probably more likely to die in a road accident travelling to work than of Covid.

Other essential services have to carry on, police, fire, nurses, carers, they are all dangerous jobs. Statistically probably more dangerous than teaching even during Covid.

Even if we close for two weeks, even if we mandate masks for all students, the unions will still find a reason to close. They will say that teachers can't be expected to teach in a mask all day.

The unions only care about the teachers and point scoring. Not about the children.

No I'm not part of the NEU so don't know what info they've sent to their members on PPE. Personally I'm hoping the mass testing works but I imagine Perspex screens between staff and children would be a start although obviously not a total solution by any means. It's very difficult - as a teacher I would like the children to wear masks at all times but as a parent I know my daughter would struggle with that.

Quite happy to have a sensible debate on this issue as I see both sides but I can see the teacher bashers have arrived who are being bitchy on principle so will leave them to their rage!

@Whataloadofshit absolutely!

@hopsalong

You have confirmed my fears. My DD recently interviewed at Oxford (we would be in the criteria you describe). She has had very little interaction from her college over the past year and in my opinion, only succeeded to interview through her passion for her chosen subject. Even where she has been given conditional offers, I fear she will not achieve the required results in all of her subjects to secure her place.