AIBU to stand up for children and parents...

[alwaysraining123]

... and say that closing schools is not an option. Some observations.

(1) millions of children will suffer poorer mental health, educational deficits and be at risk of physical harm.
(2) if schools close now the government will struggle to get them back open.
(3) the unions are playing a highly political game preying shamelessly on people’s fears.
(4) online learning is of no use for most of the primary school years. Parents basically need to be available all day to support children.
(5) more parents are going to find themselves unable to work causing more financial hardship. This won’t affect your middle class sahps or people who can work from home as much- there are people who actually have to go out of their house to earn a living.
(6) if you’re parent and you’re worried you can keep your child at home.
(7) educational transmission of the virus is low and infection control standards can be escalated where needed.

Whatever is done we need to place maintaining educational provision for children at the heart of it. We need to make it work...there’s no other option.

Thank you alwaysraining123 I agree with everything you said 100%

Gosh this is so boring now. No one cares that you dislike teachers enough to believe that they should continue risking their health with no effective mitigations. That you believe this says more about you than anyone else.

Yawn.

What about police, NHS/care staff, prison officers, supermarket workers etc etc - why is it ok for them to continue working but not ok for teachers?

I have been reading news articles on how empty the streets were for New Year’s Eve. The police were walking around doing very little and the A&E department had the quietest New Years they’ve ever had - are these people getting slated the same way as teachers are for not doing their jobs properly?

Even if we close for two weeks, even if we mandate masks for all students, the unions will still find a reason to close. They will say that teachers can't be expected to teach in a mask all day.

The whole point on closing for 2 weeks is so the testing hubs can be set up and staff can be trained on how to test properly.

These tests will he done regularly for both staff and students and have almost immediate results. Which will allow the schools to stay open for those who are negative.

There are lots of negatives about the tests though - eg apparently the tests aren’t that accurate, when and where will these tests be done - their education will still be disrupted, they can become positive 2 seconds after taking the test but think they’re negative, by being positive and coming into school on public transport and mixing is going to result in lots more people becoming positive (I think home tests would be much more efficient)

I don’t think anyone dislikes teachers, I certainly don’t, my mum was a teacher and I have close family still teaching. The issue currently surrounding primary schools is the main issue appears to be teachers feel they are more unsafe than other professions as they don’t have the masks , so the simple solution is to allow teachers to wear masks.
Absolutely reasonable. Except where is the campaigning for that? Why aren’t the unions advising all teachers to turn up in PPE on Monday? Why aren’t teachers taking actions by wearing masks?
The talk of ‘we only want safe schools’ doesn’t wash anymore because no one seems to be fighting for a solution to make them safer, only closed. So it appears teachers want zero risk, they want to go home. Many professions feel unsafe now, I do at work, no one wears masks there either (adults), but we can’t just all pack up and go home in a pandemic, we have to play our part and pull our weight.
If the campaigns had focused on safer workplaces then you’d have a lot more parental support.
In the last lockdown, many teachers sent their kids to schools manned by TA’s and proceeded to ‘work’ by sending home a twinkle sheet a week, so lots of parents are understandably still pissed off at this.
There would be a lot more support for safer schools than there will be for closed schools.

But primaries aren't going to be doing the testing, are they?

Newyearsamecovid I agree with you 100% you put it exactly right.

Agree I don't dislike teachers. It's a ridiculous and childish argument when someone disagrees to simply claim they hate teachers.

I can just as easily claim that teachers hate children and hate parents.

The only thing I dislike is the narrative that teachers are more at risk than any other essential workers, or factory workers.

Newyearsamecovid I disagree with you 100% you put it exactly wrong.

CarrieBlue you dislike teachers and don’t think they should be allowed PPE? You sound unpleasant.

I was watching Boris on the Andrew Marr show again saying schools are safe. He was sitting at least 2m away from Andrew Marr. When Parliament is in session only a handful of MPs are allowed in the chamber at a time. What makes schools different so you can have 30+ people in one small room crammed together with no social distancing?

@Newyearsamecovid

I don’t think anyone dislikes teachers, I certainly don’t, my mum was a teacher and I have close family still teaching. The issue currently surrounding primary schools is the main issue appears to be teachers feel they are more unsafe than other professions as they don’t have the masks , so the simple solution is to allow teachers to wear masks. Absolutely reasonable. Except where is the campaigning for that? Why aren’t the unions advising all teachers to turn up in PPE on Monday? Why aren’t teachers taking actions by wearing masks? The talk of ‘we only want safe schools’ doesn’t wash anymore because no one seems to be fighting for a solution to make them safer, only closed. So it appears teachers want zero risk, they want to go home. Many professions feel unsafe now, I do at work, no one wears masks there either (adults), but we can’t just all pack up and go home in a pandemic, we have to play our part and pull our weight. If the campaigns had focused on safer workplaces then you’d have a lot more parental support. In the last lockdown, many teachers sent their kids to schools manned by TA’s and proceeded to ‘work’ by sending home a twinkle sheet a week, so lots of parents are understandably still pissed off at this. There would be a lot more support for safer schools than there will be for closed schools.

Masks are worn mainly to keep others safe they do very little in terms of your own safety. So what we are saying is the children would need to wear masks...not sure about anyone else but I'm really uncomfortable with that

I’m with you op. I think keeping schools open is so important for children’s MH, disadvantaged children (and by disadvantaged, I don’t just mean vulnerable. I’m also mean children from families whose parents both work FT and therefore can’t home school), physical exercise, etc ... soooo many reasons to keep them open. However, I don’t want the wonderful teachers at our school being put at risk either.
I have seen in threads here on MN that some teachers feel unsafe. Some feel safe. I suppose it depends on how well a school is managing it alongside individual fears.
I don’t know the answer, but schools need to be open and it needs to be safe for the teachers. I suppose a start would be for teachers to be issued with masks and maybe KS2 children to wear masks as well?

Not convinced mass testing is the answer, you’d have to test every child every day. A negative test today doesn’t mean it won’t be positive tomorrow.

But primaries aren't going to be doing the testing, are they?

They will be if it’s successful in secondary schools. Why wouldn’t they?
It’s just easier to pilot it in secondary schools first and they don’t want to close primaries unless they absolutely have to due to childcare reasons more than educational.

@toocold54

But primaries aren't going to be doing the testing, are they?

They will be if it’s successful in secondary schools. Why wouldn’t they?
It’s just easier to pilot it in secondary schools first and they don’t want to close primaries unless they absolutely have to due to childcare reasons more than educational.

Toocold is two weeks to set up testing in primary a request from the union?

Incidentally as usual, those who can only think in binary terms are making the most noise, whether for or against.

In the school I work in, in a struggling T4 area, the parents were petitioning for the primary to shut along with the secondary as they were worried about sending their children in! Prior to the government U turn. And we were insisting we had to stay open. There actually isn't a simple solution to please everyone. Many of our parents can WFH though.

@NeurologicallySpeaking

No I'm not part of the NEU so don't know what info they've sent to their members on PPE. Personally I'm hoping the mass testing works but I imagine Perspex screens between staff and children would be a start although obviously not a total solution by any means. It's very difficult - as a teacher I would like the children to wear masks at all times but as a parent I know my daughter would struggle with that.

Quite happy to have a sensible debate on this issue as I see both sides but I can see the teacher bashers have arrived who are being bitchy on principle so will leave them to their rage!

Thanks that’s a shame I appreciated your reply : )

CarrieBlue you dislike teachers and don’t think they should be allowed PPE? You sound unpleasant.

I am a teacher and I’m not the one who sounds unpleasant. Your second hand knowledge of what you reckon is happening in schools is irrelevant, stop telling us what we should be doing. I’m not telling you how to do your job, or the dangers involved whatever they may be. Please extend the same courtesy to teachers and stop being so unpleasant in suggesting teachers want zero risk and to go home.

Masks are worn mainly to keep others safe they do very little in terms of your own safety. So what we are saying is the children would need to wear masks...not sure about anyone else but I'm really uncomfortable with that
That’s not correct, N95s in particular protect the wearer. Covid patients in hospital are certainly not keeping their masks on at all times. Neither are bus passengers, supermarket shoppers, prisoners etc.

@Newyearsamecovid

Masks are worn mainly to keep others safe they do very little in terms of your own safety. So what we are saying is the children would need to wear masks...not sure about anyone else but I'm really uncomfortable with that That’s not correct, N95s in particular protect the wearer. Covid patients in hospital are certainly not keeping their masks on at all times. Neither are bus passengers, supermarket shoppers, prisoners etc.

Respirators protect you if properly fitted. However they are only available to critical care staff and when doing high risk procedures so not sure if the relevance for ward staff, bus drivers or schools?

@toocold54 sorry but I specifically said I was not slagging off teachers. I know what an amazing job they do as I work in schools so I am not saying they don't do their job properly - not sure how you got that from what I said. All I'm saying is that yes of course it's a risk for them but other essential services are in the same boat. To say the police are wandering the streets doing nothing is ignorance as this is not the case.
I'm sure most teachers are considering the safety of children and families and as I said in my post I do agree to some extent with the argument to shut schools but unfortunately the press and the teaching unions put it across that it's all about the safety of staff (which of course is a valid reason) however it is going to make some people question why teachers safety is more important than those working in other public facing services who have had no choice but to work the whole way through this pandemic.

Which comes first, a 5 year old's right to education or an 85 year old's right to medical care?

This wouldn't be the a question, though, would it? Hospitals are at risk of not being able to provide medical care to people of any age and for any condition. Cancer operations will be cancelled. With too many more covid cases, we risk people not being treated for car accident injuries, strokes, heart attacks, appendicitis...

We also can't manage this by deciding just not to treat people with covid over a certain age, even if it was remotely ethical to just cherry pick one medical condition not to treat, because the age would have to be at least 20 years younger than 85. It would not in any way look like just an extension of DNRs, or be implementable just by telling ambulances not to bring residents in from nursing homes. You would need barriers outside hospitals, and security, to stop people bringing in relatives from their homes. It would be messy, and ugly, and terrifying for anyone needing medical care of any kind.

And then, even if you succeeded in doing that, and enough people with severe covid stayed at home to keep hospitals more functional, but the virus was still spreading fast because we didn't want to close things like schools, then deaths would still keep increasing, just in ordinary people's homes. Again, this wouldn't 'just' be elderly people in nursing homes, tidily out of sight - it would include people like the grandparents, teachers and sometimes parents of the children whose education we're worrying about. Some of those deaths would happen in children's own homes.

I know you were asking questions, not proposing a particular solution yourself, but I think it's important we realise that anything involving deciding not to treat covid patients to avoid them filling hospitals would bring us to a modern day "bring out your dead" situation a lot sooner than we might think. Even if we could justify it ethically, it wouldn't be experienced by ordinary people as something tidily contained to very elderly people only.

What's most frightening, of course, is that if cases rise far enough and fast enough we might end up in that situation anyway, just by running out of capacity in hospitals.

@Newyearsamecovid totally agree !!

Finally. Thank you

Toocold is two weeks to set up testing in primary a request from the union?

No I don’t think they’ve mentioned primary testing yet. But if it is successful in secondary schools and reduces the risk of full school closures I can assume they will carry it on to primary schools, care homes etc too.