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Good News Thread Number 4. Because that positivity just keeps on coming!

999 replies

FuzzyPuffling · 31/12/2020 15:41

Here it is....number four thread of science and positivity!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
thatgingergirl · 03/01/2021 10:34

Teen - oh, no - ladders and gutters - there's no telling them sometimes! It's great that you've got them technologically up to speed.

I live near my parents so was delivering shopping during the original lockdown, but they did get out a couple of times when things were eased last summer. Then mum had a fall and was hospitalised for a few nights, so I practically moved in for a month or so.

It was a very anxious time, but she made great progress and apart from shopping, they've been managing everything else just fine for a couple of months now. The pair of them are marvellous!

TeenPlusTwenties · 03/01/2021 10:38

thatginger At least he decided he couldn't rebuild a wall by himself (that a young driver knocked over in June) Grin

thatgingergirl · 03/01/2021 10:41

Teen - Grin

shinynewapple2021 · 03/01/2021 10:57

@MarcelineMissouri

2021 is going to be a good year for good news - I can feel it!!

Hope I don’t get it wrong like boris did though GrinGrin

Bookmarking this for my watches threads . Could do with some positivity . Love this !

twinmum2017 · 03/01/2021 11:11

I'm hiding the coronavirus topic, it's too stressful. Hanging out here instead if you'll have me :)

TheChineseChicken · 03/01/2021 11:23

I love that this has become a bunker to hide from the CV board

FourTeaFallOut · 03/01/2021 11:27

I'm going to have to hide aibu too. It'll just be this thread and the weather board by March.

sashagabadon · 03/01/2021 11:39

India has approved Oxford vaccine. I just want to praise India generally. The serum institute and the man that runs it seems a genuinely good person. At his own risk they started manufacturing the vaccine many months ago and they are committed to not making a profit for some time. India really are stepping up to help the poorer nations. I had no idea they were such a huge manufacturer of vaccines generally.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/01/2021 11:47

And they have high levels of vaccine trust. I wonder why. Maybe it’s because with a lot of people in poverty and a high population the dangers of infectious disease feel all too immediate where some western countries have all but forgotten.

DontWalkPastTheCastle · 03/01/2021 11:52

Facebook post from Tom Fardon who is a consultant local to me, and Clinical Lead for the Scottish Gov, about the vaccine regime. If you want no-nonsense coronavirus commentary he is definitely worth following.

Happy New Year. Vaccine Chat.

A number of people have asked me about the vaccines in the last 4 weeks, particularly in the last week since the guidance on dose intervals has changed: the 4 chief medical officers now recommend that the vaccines are not given at a 4 week interval now, rather they are given 8 to 12 weeks spaced apart.

This is good news in a number of ways. The most important practical thing is that there are only a limited number of vaccines available to give, so from the start of December whenever anyone got a vaccination, their second dose had to be put aside to give to them a month later. Now we can use those 'second doses' to vaccinate more people for the first time - more people vaccinated at all is a good thing.

Vaccines work by generating an immune response to a foreign antigen, in this case COVID proteins (either generated by transcribing injected mRNA, or spliced onto some simian adenovirus), leading to production of antibodies (easy to measure) and memory T cells (hard to measure).

After the first vaccine shot there are detectable antibodies at 28 days - the table below is from the UK Govt website (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca) - the figure is 7,000-8,000 if you care about the numbers. This is comparable to the figures found in people who have had COVID.

28 days after the second shot there are more detectable antibodies - more than 20,000. But if you look at the table, the response actually goes up the longer the interval between the vaccinations: 22k at < 6 week interval; 24k 6-8 weeks; 34k 9-11 weeks; and 63k when the interval is ≥ 12 weeks. There's a rationale for this - the complete immune response is probably not complete until 6 weeks post vaccination; the simian adenovirus vector generates an immune response too, but it wanes so leaving the second vaccination longer means less simian adenovirus antibody, so more exposure to the vaccine, and a bigger COVID antibody response.

Longer dosing schedules lead to improved responses in other forms of vaccine too. The graphs below show that flu and ebola vaccinations generate better antibody responses when given at longer intervals, using a variety of vaccination mechanisms, not just adenovirus vectoring. So although we only have the longer dose interval data for the Oxford/AZ vaccine, not the Pfizer vaccine, there isn't a very good rationale for why the response would be any different.

So is the 7k-8k of antibodies after the first injection "enough". The next graph shows the difference between getting one placebo vaccination and one actual vaccination, in terms of getting COVID - the lines diverge between 7 and 14 days, suggesting that however many antibodies, or T cells, or whatever bit of the immune system is generated, it happens within those first 2 weeks.

The upshot of all this is, if you've had your first vaccine and have just found out that your second vaccine due next week has been postponed, it's good news for someone else who is going to get that vaccine instead, and good news for you that you'll probably be better protected from the booster by having it 8 to 12 weeks later, not 4.

(Here's a great Twitter Thread about all of this from an actual vaccine researcher in Oxford - I have used a lot of his chat in here, you can read his thoughts directly here: https://twitter.com/sandyddouglas/status/1344949258483621888)

Another recent change to the vaccination advice was that the vaccines can be given to people who have food and other allergies. This is another good thing, allowing more people access to the vaccines.

The list of ingredients in the vaccines is very small. The Ox/AZ vaccine has the viral component, then the list of excipients below. L-Histidine is an amino acid, we get it from food, and need it for nerve function. Polysorbate 80 is a plant based surfactant and emulsifier. Ethanol is an alcohol. Sucrose is a sugar. Sodum chloride is table salt. Disodium edetate dehydrate (EDTA) is a chelating agent (it pulls metals out of solution), is found in food, and is at such a low level in this vaccine (less than 1mmol per dose) that it is considered essentially sodium free. Certainly nothing toxic, nothing dangerous, and nothing that hasn't been used before in injectable form.

Other key vaccine snippets:

Both of the vaccines simply present SARS-CoV-2 proteins to the immune system.

There is no live (or dead) virus within either vaccine.
Neither can possibly give the recipient COVID.
The Pfizer vaccine contains mRNA: it does not, and cannot, alter host DNA.

Will the vaccine protect us against new strains? Most likely. The protein antigen in the vaccine is large (in terms of proteins, at least) - the mutations are in only small areas of this large protein. The immune system generates antibodies against lots of parts of the protein, not just the bits that have not been mutated. A good analogy is this - you can recognise your best friend whether they are wearing a hat, or not; the immune system, once primed with the vaccine, will recognise SARS-CoV-2 proteins, just not the bits wearing the hat.

The messages from colleagues in the larger cities in the UK, particularly London, are that there has been an exponential increase in cases and admissions to hospitals. Some London hospitals report there are more patients with COVID that with everything else put together, and 94% of these are cases admitted from the community (only 6% have become COVID positive since being admitted with something else).

What we can do about it is the same as we've been doing so well with over the last 8 months - face coverings, avoiding crowded places (particularly indoors), hand hygeine, social distancing, sticking with it. People infected can be infectious before having symptoms, so don't assume you or anyone else doesn't have it. The vaccine roll out has started, and is accelerating, helped by the new dosing schedule, but we have to dig in and stay the course until there's enough vaccination done. That will take many months, but it will happen. Time to double down.

Cathster · 03/01/2021 11:55

I’ve been lurking on this thread for a few weeks, and hope you don’t mind me delurking and joining you all! I’ve now taken the advice of many on here and have hidden the Coronavirus topic as it’s so much harder to see the light at the end of the tunnel with everything on there!

There’s not much else going on really on Mumsnet though is there?!

Great news about India approving the vaccine.

MorrisZapp · 03/01/2021 11:57

Absolutely brilliant!! They interviewed a Scottish doctor on the news last night, they're ready to start vaccinating for twelve hours a day starting at 7am tomorrow. People really, really want to do this.

DontWalkPastTheCastle · 03/01/2021 11:57

The Snow Watch thread is always fun Smile

LightandAiry · 03/01/2021 12:10

Just come across this thread, I can't get through this without some positivity - I don't want to be miserable as that will not help anyone. I am looking forwards and carrying on.

I am speculating that by April/May we could be in the situation again where we can meet 6 people inside and outside, could be too soon, but it will happen. Even if it's just 6 of us outside that's going in the right direction.

DontWalkPastTheCastle Thanks for the info, I've not logged on to Twitter for a long time but it will help to follow some Scientists to find out information rather than journalists.

thatgingergirl · 03/01/2021 12:13

Don'tWalk - thanks for that Vaccine Chat information! I have no problem with the single initial dose regimen just on a "most benefit to most people" feeling. It's really good to know the science!

DontWalkPastTheCastle · 03/01/2021 12:17

Me too, I instinctively felt it made sense but relieved to know it's actually, y'know, science approved Grin

TheChineseChicken · 03/01/2021 12:29

@DontWalkPastTheCastle

Facebook post from Tom Fardon who is a consultant local to me, and Clinical Lead for the Scottish Gov, about the vaccine regime. If you want no-nonsense coronavirus commentary he is definitely worth following.

Happy New Year. Vaccine Chat.

A number of people have asked me about the vaccines in the last 4 weeks, particularly in the last week since the guidance on dose intervals has changed: the 4 chief medical officers now recommend that the vaccines are not given at a 4 week interval now, rather they are given 8 to 12 weeks spaced apart.

This is good news in a number of ways. The most important practical thing is that there are only a limited number of vaccines available to give, so from the start of December whenever anyone got a vaccination, their second dose had to be put aside to give to them a month later. Now we can use those 'second doses' to vaccinate more people for the first time - more people vaccinated at all is a good thing.

Vaccines work by generating an immune response to a foreign antigen, in this case COVID proteins (either generated by transcribing injected mRNA, or spliced onto some simian adenovirus), leading to production of antibodies (easy to measure) and memory T cells (hard to measure).

After the first vaccine shot there are detectable antibodies at 28 days - the table below is from the UK Govt website ([[https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca]]) - the figure is 7,000-8,000 if you care about the numbers. This is comparable to the figures found in people who have had COVID.

28 days after the second shot there are more detectable antibodies - more than 20,000. But if you look at the table, the response actually goes up the longer the interval between the vaccinations: 22k at < 6 week interval; 24k 6-8 weeks; 34k 9-11 weeks; and 63k when the interval is ≥ 12 weeks. There's a rationale for this - the complete immune response is probably not complete until 6 weeks post vaccination; the simian adenovirus vector generates an immune response too, but it wanes so leaving the second vaccination longer means less simian adenovirus antibody, so more exposure to the vaccine, and a bigger COVID antibody response.

Longer dosing schedules lead to improved responses in other forms of vaccine too. The graphs below show that flu and ebola vaccinations generate better antibody responses when given at longer intervals, using a variety of vaccination mechanisms, not just adenovirus vectoring. So although we only have the longer dose interval data for the Oxford/AZ vaccine, not the Pfizer vaccine, there isn't a very good rationale for why the response would be any different.

So is the 7k-8k of antibodies after the first injection "enough". The next graph shows the difference between getting one placebo vaccination and one actual vaccination, in terms of getting COVID - the lines diverge between 7 and 14 days, suggesting that however many antibodies, or T cells, or whatever bit of the immune system is generated, it happens within those first 2 weeks.

The upshot of all this is, if you've had your first vaccine and have just found out that your second vaccine due next week has been postponed, it's good news for someone else who is going to get that vaccine instead, and good news for you that you'll probably be better protected from the booster by having it 8 to 12 weeks later, not 4.

(Here's a great Twitter Thread about all of this from an actual vaccine researcher in Oxford - I have used a lot of his chat in here, you can read his thoughts directly here: [[https://twitter.com/sandyddouglas/status/1344949258483621888]])

Another recent change to the vaccination advice was that the vaccines can be given to people who have food and other allergies. This is another good thing, allowing more people access to the vaccines.

The list of ingredients in the vaccines is very small. The Ox/AZ vaccine has the viral component, then the list of excipients below. L-Histidine is an amino acid, we get it from food, and need it for nerve function. Polysorbate 80 is a plant based surfactant and emulsifier. Ethanol is an alcohol. Sucrose is a sugar. Sodum chloride is table salt. Disodium edetate dehydrate (EDTA) is a chelating agent (it pulls metals out of solution), is found in food, and is at such a low level in this vaccine (less than 1mmol per dose) that it is considered essentially sodium free. Certainly nothing toxic, nothing dangerous, and nothing that hasn't been used before in injectable form.

Other key vaccine snippets:

Both of the vaccines simply present SARS-CoV-2 proteins to the immune system.

There is no live (or dead) virus within either vaccine.
Neither can possibly give the recipient COVID.
The Pfizer vaccine contains mRNA: it does not, and cannot, alter host DNA.

Will the vaccine protect us against new strains? Most likely. The protein antigen in the vaccine is large (in terms of proteins, at least) - the mutations are in only small areas of this large protein. The immune system generates antibodies against lots of parts of the protein, not just the bits that have not been mutated. A good analogy is this - you can recognise your best friend whether they are wearing a hat, or not; the immune system, once primed with the vaccine, will recognise SARS-CoV-2 proteins, just not the bits wearing the hat.

The messages from colleagues in the larger cities in the UK, particularly London, are that there has been an exponential increase in cases and admissions to hospitals. Some London hospitals report there are more patients with COVID that with everything else put together, and 94% of these are cases admitted from the community (only 6% have become COVID positive since being admitted with something else).

What we can do about it is the same as we've been doing so well with over the last 8 months - face coverings, avoiding crowded places (particularly indoors), hand hygeine, social distancing, sticking with it. People infected can be infectious before having symptoms, so don't assume you or anyone else doesn't have it. The vaccine roll out has started, and is accelerating, helped by the new dosing schedule, but we have to dig in and stay the course until there's enough vaccination done. That will take many months, but it will happen. Time to double down.

Fantastic post. Information like this should be more broadly published and not hidden away on social media
TheChineseChicken · 03/01/2021 12:30

@DontWalkPastTheCastle

The Snow Watch thread is always fun Smile
Oh God, I hate snow Grin
Bearsbearsbears40 · 03/01/2021 12:47

Hello all, a bit of a long-time lurker on these threads. I’ve just been reading another thread where it’s been said that we won’t see meaningful reductions in the deaths/hospital data (due to vaccination) until late January. I know it’s generally awful and we don’t want to see these numbers at all, but late January really isn’t far away now, something we can really hold on to...

FourTeaFallOut · 03/01/2021 12:53

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-55519042

Good to see the bmj is holding the NYT to account for dishing out misinformation about mixing vaccines.

FuzzyPuffling · 03/01/2021 13:07

Hello lurkers all and welcome aboard the Good Ship Hope!

Don'tWalkPastTheCastle that's a great post. Thank you.
I'd understood that the chimp vector was an issue with efficacy and this explains so clearly how the longer wait for vaccine no 2 overcomes that issue. (I read it was the same in the LD/SD thing - the body could get "used" to the chimp vector and not destroy the CV part at the same time.)

OP posts:
sashagabadon · 03/01/2021 13:08

That is really good to see.
There was a poster on Mumsnet pushing that particular story so hopefully it will be clarified on the NY times website.

InterfectoremVulpes · 03/01/2021 13:13

@DontWalkPastTheCastle

Me too, I instinctively felt it made sense but relieved to know it's actually, y'know, science approved Grin
Yeah, Science!
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/01/2021 13:37

@Bearsbearsbears40

Hello all, a bit of a long-time lurker on these threads. I’ve just been reading another thread where it’s been said that we won’t see meaningful reductions in the deaths/hospital data (due to vaccination) until late January. I know it’s generally awful and we don’t want to see these numbers at all, but late January really isn’t far away now, something we can really hold on to...
I will take late January! It could be a lot worse than that.
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/01/2021 13:38

I mean in a ‘that’s not too bad’ sense rather than a doomy ‘it might be much worse’ way...