The logistical issue with closing primary schools...

[Jourdain11]

Just want to say at the start that, in saying this, I do not in any way mean to undermine teachers' and school staffs' right to work in a safe environment. But there is a big logistical issue with the closure of primary schools, assuming that childcare arrangements would also be knocked out.

In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent. Since the rules/guidance now is to "work from home unless you cannot do your job at home", there are many, many more people who are expected to go into work, at least on a part-time schedule.

Which creates a huge issue in terms of primary-aged children doing remote learning from home. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school (which creates issues for staff in terms of providing in-school staffing and online provision simultaneously, and also slightly defeats the point of the entire exercise); or you have thousands of parents having to resign their jobs, take unpaid leave, beg for time off or whatever (which is clearly very far from ideal). Or you end up with parents simply saying, "I pay taxes for my children to be educated in school and it is their right to receive this education" and sending them in anyway.

Seems the only way around this would be either to have a "short, sharp" shutdown with a (for example) 2-week timelimit, which might be more manageable for both parents and school staff. Or to stay open and increase hygiene measures in PSs, or at least strive to make them equal across all schools.

Thoughts?

Unsurprisingly, Mumsnet is a bit of an echo chamber for parents but there are many, many people who are no longer bothered about keeping schools open and don’t give two hoots about your jobs and the stress you might be feeling. I am a teacher and have had two of my childless friends telling me they wish they would close the schools so their small businesses could stay open instead. Not that is matters what anyone wants as the government will do as the government sees best.

Why is it pointless? I wasn't trying to start a slanging match. It is just interesting to hear different opinions, and to talk round different solutions.

Although I currently live in England, I have family in many countries and every single one of those countries know exactly what is happening regarding the schools come January. They have locked down (shops and schools) from Christmas until XYZ date in January to slow the spread. They all see that locking down during the festive season when most have taken off and will be sticking close to home is the most logical plan. Fingers crossed by the end of January these countries will be able to open up.

The only fucking country that is meandering is England. The country with one of the worst track records during this pandemic is the one lagging behind YET again.

Yeah, it would be massively useful to have a clear governmental line on this. Even more so if they actually consulted some educationalists during their decision-making.

@Goldenomber my school has about 25 working laptop computers we have to book them as a class if we want them.

There's lots of things they could and should have done differently. A two week half term. Closing early for Christmas (as opposed to actually threatening LEGAL ACTION against schools trying to close early because they were on their knees from the new variant!!!)

And obviously things like masks, rotas, attempts at distancing if not full-on distancing, more money for cleaning, more money for buildings and staffing to space out kids, adequate toilet facilities etc.

None of that was done and now it's too late. Schools have to close, or this will continue to run rife and we can't vaccinate fast enough to mitigate it. It doesn't really matter if it's not convenient for parents. The virus isn't arsed what's convenient or what your employer thinks. We are where we are - now let's have an announcement from the government and some planning from working parents.

I don't really have any sympathy for the 'having the kids at home was so tough on me' people. Having all the kids in school is risking lives in staff and families, and businesses because they keep closing them to try to stave off a tiny section of the virus while it's allowed to gallop through the massive group gatherings that are schools. They're your kids and it's a pandemic so suck it up and do your best. Employers will just have to cope. A good proportion of the workforce is working parents - they can't fire them all.

What about the teachers. They seem to be last on the list of priorities when these things are discussed. Teachers have died of COVID too - contracted in primary schools.

@ArtieFufkinPolymerRecords So staff have 15 children in AM for 3 hours and 15 children PM for 3 hours - I really don't think that is going to make that much difference to my chances of catching Covid, compared to during the last three months. Nobody in my bubble, or indeed my school, was tested positive last term. How do you think teachers can provide online learning whilst also teaching full days in school?

I was suggesting that in this eventuality primary teachers concentrate on teaching core maths/ english /spag during this time and not online for the rest of the day. So children would get some in person teaching rather than full school closure.

Do you really think having a classroom with 15 children in at a time spread out better wouldn't be safer for teachers and pupils than a full class?

There wasn't a lot of online learning from our primary school in the original lockdown or in the period of isolation my DC had recently. I can only speak for my DCs school but they are unsurprisingly much better at providing education in school. If a safer way could be found to allow children to still attend school in some capacity through rota or p/t attendance that would be better for continuity in education, fairness of access to education, support working parents and the sectors they are working for.

@Agoodbriskwalk. I think what many of us working parents are saying is that we refuse to "suck it up". That we're not even going to try to make it work again. That's certainly my stance. I won't be running myself into the ground to pay my taxes.

@MessAllOver

The issue is not with people wfh, it is with people wfh while caring for young children. Pre-Covid, the vast majority of employers who allowed flexible working prohibited this because it is bad for both the employer and the employee. Children don't have a "pause" or an "off" button and can't simply be switched off during working hours, as many seem to think.

This.

My DH is full-time and I work three days a week. Yes, we can both WFH, still are currently, and likely to until at least the summer.

However, we have a two-year-old and four-year-old (who has just started reception). They need constant supervision and attention. Last time (with supportive employers) we split the days we both worked in two and did half a day each childcare and half work, catching up in the evenings.

We were possibly in one of the best positions possible in terms of us both WFH with flexible employers and it was still an exhausting nightmare. Honestly don't know how families with a single parent or with one who works out of the home coped. Plus DC1 wasn't at school then so we didn't have to home-school.. This time, how is it possible to home-school plus also look after a two-year-old?

WFH isn't the answer. You can't WFH and look after young children simultaneously.

I don't really have any sympathy for the 'having the kids at home was so tough on me' people.

Really? Do you have a limited amount of sympathy to go around, that you’re worried about using it up?

Or do you think that if you start being sympathetic to working parents, it might complicate things for you? Much easier to decide where to stand on a hellishly complex situation if you can just tell one group of people affected to “suck it up” after all.

Lots of teaching staff voiced their concerns in September. That the (non existent) safety measures were not good enough. They were abused and shouted down every time for being negative and lazy. This situation was always coming for January and February. I'm certainly not surprised we are discussing school closures. Are you?

@PrettyGreen24

What about the teachers. They seem to be last on the list of priorities when these things are discussed. Teachers have died of COVID too - contracted in primary schools.

Wait for it. People will be along to tell you that teachers are no more likely than anyone else, despite the fact that they are in a building full of adults and child where social distancing is impractical with no PPE.

That we're not even going to try to make it work again.

What are you going to do? Just shut your kids out of the house between 9 and 5?

we're not even going to try to make it work again

Wow.

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot

That we're not even going to try to make it work again.

What are you going to do? Just shut your kids out of the house between 9 and 5?

Quit.

I probably won’t if it’s just a few weeks, because we need my salary and I really love my job and I care very much about the work I do, and plus I don’t want to leave my colleagues and our service users in the lurch. But if we end up facing down an indefinite future of this with no more support than “just ask your employer to be flexible! ” again then I’m out.

A good proportion of the workforce is working parents - they can't fire them all.

As I said before. 1.5m women are full time working parents. UK workforce is 30m. Let's not get into the "but what about working dads" part as we all full well know that it is mostly the women who are actually doing childcare. Yes, there are surely some outliers, but that is a statistically insignificant number.

I would also argue that out of these 1.5m women what proportion is working because it's needed and how many are building a career. I am sure that with enough thought and planning there would have been ways to mitigate these problems. But the gov doesn't care. It's simple as that. They couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

For primaries I would suggest to have the "key worker" status to be means tested:

• working in truly key worker status (NHS for example, or teacher)
• working for food on the table - no place, but subsidize wages. Even maybe upskill if possible for future employability
• working for extra money? - have your kid at home pls.

Another option would have been to look at the whole primary education as a system.

1. define core competencies (numeracy, reading, writing)
2. allocate no of hours that are needed as a minimum
3. re-structure education to provide for less f2f in school and more work at home experience

Since this didn't happen all schools are trying to do is make current paradigms work in a very diff environment. It won't work really.
A full paradigm change would have been needed with the caveat that it is only for this school year. Not 2 months or whatever. For the full year.

I think teachers have been brave and dedicated, but ultimately short sighted and their own worst enemies. They should never have gone back without PROPER mitigation measures in Sept. That was the point where it would have made a difference. Now is too late. Apart form a longer circuit breaker/lockdown, transmission will soar.

Childcare re young children is of course a huge issue on a parenting site, but a very very small concern to the government given the numbers involved. Childcare is also a thing that sadly generally gets sorted for most without the government needing to give handouts or support, because that's what has always happened, bar a few sad faces in the DM. Imagine the comments in the red tops if parents started getting paid to stay at home with their kids. It's just a battle to win the public opinion: if the shouts for lower daily figures get any louder they will need to be seen to be doing something and IMO they've already started the drip feed about school closures. I work FT as a primary teacher and can see all the issues here. I've made some plans in case I need to take some unpaid leave. What more can we all do?

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot. Nope, I will be prioritising my DC's welfare. So I will be requesting unpaid leave and, if that request is refused, handing in my resignation. I won't be responding to requests to "do what you can".

I actually think it will be less damaging to my career to be completely unavailable for work than to do a shoddy job for weeks on end, which was what happened last year.

For all of the "we didn't have any covid cases all term in our primary" posts. We didn't either, but the cases in our area have shot up in the last week by 300%. We aren't in last term any more.

The practicalities for non-key worker parents are pretty crap. I work FT. No option to be furloughed as my job needs doing. Last time DD1 was ok, but DD2 was quite neglected educationally. Her work was squeezed into the evenings. But it is what it is.

@Fedup21. What's so "wow" about being unwilling to neglect our kids again?

Small business owners face more closures and are facing financial ruin as they are shut down to keep education going. Parents feel they can’t work and supervise their young children. School staff face either the high risk of infection from being in unsafe workplaces or teaching from home (incredibly challenging) often with their own families too. What works best for one, is not going to satisfy the others. What compromises could be made?

@MintyMabel

why can’t primaries stay open and temporarily have half the class in AM / half PM to ensure continuity in core teaching while social distancing can actually be achieved. Totally appreciate this doesn’t help those who work out the home but surely better than full closure and helps those expected to wfh while being beneficial to children’s education & wellbeing

Half days are no good at all. If you need to go to the office, you need a whole day. No reason they can’t stagger and do half the class in one day and half in another.

Of course it's an issue! If you're a teacher, you can't wfh. If you're a shop worker, a barista, a refuse collector, someone who works in healthcare

You clearly missed the bit where I said there are people who can’t work from home but this is no different to how it was back when schools were closed in March, somehow we all got through it.

Closing schools is the last resort, so if schools are closed your barista is at home as coffee shops are closed too. As are the vast majority of retail workers and teachers. Schools places are available for key workers, your local authority is half shifting refuse workers for safety and your bin collections are reduced. It is also the case that a majority of working adults don’t have children in primary schools. In any organisation there will be a mix of those who do and those who don’t. Every place I’ve worked since DD started school, I’ve been in a pretty small minority. My company has 40 employees, I’m the only one with a child in primary school. Furlough is available for parents of school aged children

Something to consider but not a big issue by any stretch of the imagination.

Due to the type of organisation, neither mine nor my husband's is able to furlough staff.

On the flip side. I don’t want to juggle home schooling, live learning (which we did all lockdown in our primary) and KW provision again. Especially in the ridiculously unsafe circumstances we are all in, with the best mitigation school can provide. I’ll happily leave but then I can afford to as my husband is a very high earner.

I don’t want schools to close but they will because this cannot go on.