The logistical issue with closing primary schools...

[Jourdain11]

Just want to say at the start that, in saying this, I do not in any way mean to undermine teachers' and school staffs' right to work in a safe environment. But there is a big logistical issue with the closure of primary schools, assuming that childcare arrangements would also be knocked out.

In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent. Since the rules/guidance now is to "work from home unless you cannot do your job at home", there are many, many more people who are expected to go into work, at least on a part-time schedule.

Which creates a huge issue in terms of primary-aged children doing remote learning from home. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school (which creates issues for staff in terms of providing in-school staffing and online provision simultaneously, and also slightly defeats the point of the entire exercise); or you have thousands of parents having to resign their jobs, take unpaid leave, beg for time off or whatever (which is clearly very far from ideal). Or you end up with parents simply saying, "I pay taxes for my children to be educated in school and it is their right to receive this education" and sending them in anyway.

Seems the only way around this would be either to have a "short, sharp" shutdown with a (for example) 2-week timelimit, which might be more manageable for both parents and school staff. Or to stay open and increase hygiene measures in PSs, or at least strive to make them equal across all schools.

Thoughts?

The whole month closure they are pushing for is, IMO, too much.

It's two weeks, one of which is already mandated for secondaries?

It's too much for anyone, but it's needed if testing the way the government wants is to be sorted. Watch your sources, op, this kind of little fib creeps on into bigger lies.

There are a variety of ways to continue to make sure dc get educated but some people only want to put obstacles in the way

Okay, great start! What variety of ways can you suggest for how working parents make sure their dc get educated?

"Most children should not loose 3 months of education though?
Because they can still be taught on line, just as many were."

Some cannot. Schools have to remain open for those children.

@PandemicPavolova

Most children should not loose 3 months of education though? Because they can still be taught on line, just as many were.

There are a variety of ways to continue to make sure dc get educated but some people only want to put obstacles in the way.

I mean, again, this is not the point of this thread. But it is obvious that this disadvantages the disadvantaged further. If you don't have a decent device, decent internet, a quiet place to work, parental support - the chances of meaningful home learning are much lower.

For two weeks, this is not the end of the world. For a month, two months, three months, it is more of an issue.

I am not in England - what are the main teaching unions actually asking for?

@Barbie222

The whole month closure they are pushing for is, IMO, too much.

It's two weeks, one of which is already mandated for secondaries?

It's too much for anyone, but it's needed if testing the way the government wants is to be sorted. Watch your sources, op, this kind of little fib creeps on into bigger lies.

Ah, sorry. I read an article in the Indy or Guardian this morning, but it may have actually been Independent Sage who had recommended this. Apologies if this was the case, I will check back.

@Jourdain11

Thank you! If it has to happen, we need (and I mean everyone collectively, not just the parents) to make it work. And it would be helpful to look at how that could be done.

I would accept further measures for H&S in schools, but it does seem as though for the unions that is not enough. The whole month closure they are pushing for is, IMO, too much.

Where have you seen this? That’s the first I’ve heard of it.

Heard recently about the case of a headmaster who wanted his school to shut as did not feel safe but was refused by the government. He then caught covid and died.Early 50s.Yet we want our children in schools at all costs.Selfish.

@GoldenOmber. Yes, the logistical issue appears to have been overlooked in the discussion. As far as I can see, there are three possible options for parents if schools and nurseries shut:

1. Work from home (assuming they can) and care for children simultaneously. In this scenario, we'll have to accept that there will be very little education especially for younger children since parents will be unable to supervise it. Also, that young children will receive inadequate, potentially negligent care and may be put in danger.

2. One parent takes unpaid leave or resigns. In this case, there will be a parent at home to supervise online education. But... financially disastrous for many parents, especially single parents. And children living in financially destitute families are unlikely to be able to learn effectively.

3. Organise alternative childcare. Likely to be informal for lower income families (grandparents, childcare swaps) which might help Covid spread further. Even using childminders might aid transmission. It will depend on lockdown rules whether this is an option. And logistically it's not an option for parents without family nearby.

So it would be interesting to hear views on what pp here think parents should actually do - option 1, 2 or 3? Or can anyone think of any better options?

@ItsIgginningtolookalotlikeXmas

I am not in England - what are the main teaching unions actually asking for?

As far as I can tell - nothing.

They've written a couple of weak letters complaining about conditions, and asked for more funding.

Thanks Baubles.

all staff and pupils to wear masks
Er no thanks! I teach secondary and some pupils choose to wear masks and it is very hard to hear what they are saying -so no, that would be a nightmare in class.

Option 1 but make sure social services/medical services are provided with a list of vulnerable and ill children so they can monitor them. My preferred option would be to lobby the government to provide furlough for one parent of a primary-school aged child though. I would expect secondary school children to step up.

Don’t overestimate the power of teaching unions. I have been a teacher for over twenty years and they have done diddly squat to help (or hinder, depending on your viewpoint) in most situations. Most teachers join for legal protection.

Can anyone link to the requests from unions about closing schools down at all please?

Re: logistics for working parents if primary schools don't open as planned at the beginning of term.... there have been numerous discussions about this, mainly started to and contributed to by teachers who know how education works, since the summer.

There are suggestions on this thread eg part-time schooling, funding for better hygiene and cleaning measures, also to cover the cost of supply, those laptops and tech the govt promised actually emerging etc etc. All of these have been repeated umpteen times since the summer by teachers.

Not one has become reality.

The systemic logistics of the situation will be decided by the govt, likely with no consultation with educationalists or unions, as that's their usual modus operandus.

The individual logistics of each family's situation are unique. There have also been suggestions on this thread eg tag team, one parent takes unpaid leave or resign. Only each family knows what is and isn't possible for them. For most people, it will be the less worst option of a number of nightmarish possibilities.

What does seem clear is that reducing transmission is in everyone's interests.

The problem with those options is that they all put the responsibility and the shortfalls entirely on the parents. Sure, the parents have a responsibility to address logistics but so do government and schools.

Option 1: is only available to parents who can wfh, and far from ideal for them.

Option 2: could be financially catastrophic for some families and lead to children living in poverty and all the resulting physical and mental health issues that can arise from that. Also, not everyone can resign from their job without giving notice.

Option 3: again, you have to have options available - and it is not necessarily going to decrease transmission as much as is needed.

I think the best would be to make it a short period, if it has to happen. Make the home learning as accessible as possible (i.e. not too reliant on device availability and good internet connection). And encourage parents to either struggle through the wfh, request leave - which is easier to do if it is definitely a limited, short period - rather than using childcare if poss, so that at least transmission can be lowered as much as possible during the period of closure.

It would also be helpful if the government could formally request that employers allow staff with childcare responsibilities to take leave or work flexibly during this time limited period.

No one can link to teaching unions asking for schools to close - because they have not.

there have been numerous discussions about this, mainly started to and contributed to by teachers who know how education works, since the summer.

Okay, well sorry if you’re bored of the subject, but for parents who can’t get furlough the entire sum of government suggestions on this since March amount to 🤷‍♀️ and some of us are getting a bit desperate.

I do not expect teachers to come up with solutions to this, and even less teaching unions, whose job is to represent their members not to solve broader social issues. I would just like to be able to talk about it without this handwavey “well work something out, they’re your kids” kind of responses this thread always ends up with.

@GleamingBaubles

No one can link to teaching unions asking for schools to close - because they have not.

So why did op state they did? It’s that kind of embellishment which snowballs into epic lies. Before you know it, lazy teachers and unions want the schools closed.

When in fact, every teacher I know of has been asking for the mitigations op has been asking for, for months. It has not happened and here we are.

If the government really wanted they could set up childcare hubs for bubbles on an "out of school" week - as I've said before.
It is perfectly doable. Heck you could even get OFSTED staff in to staff it instead of doing inspections (which they are not doing as apparently schools are too dangerous for them....). Plus all the usual peripatetic extra curricular teachers who are currently unemployed as the schools don't want teachers going from school to school at the moment - but if they are assigned to 2 bubbles in a hub it reduces the risk.

@GleamingBaubles

No one can link to teaching unions asking for schools to close - because they have not.

This is the article I read which I (mistakenly) took as meaning that the unions were pushing for a month's closure:

amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/27/scientists-call-for-nationwide-lockdown-after-rapid-spread-of-covid-19-variant

Article about the 2 weeks request:

amp.theguardian.com/education/2020/dec/21/delay-school-return-in-england-by-two-weeks-over-covid-union-urges

So why did op state they did? It’s that kind of embellishment which snowballs into epic lies. Before you know it, lazy teachers and unions want the schools closed.

It was a mistake, not an embellishment! I said so and apologised.

The Op has fallen for the government agenda and campaign that any Covid education failings are solely down to schools / unions, and that the government have done their best but stymied at every turn.
Just see the latest Gav headlines about he is soooo brave having an "enormous battle to keep schools open".
When if they actually really wanted schools open and kids to stay in school - they would have provided funds, mitigations, space, resources etc like every single other country with our economic standing.

Oh, for God's sake, where have I said that? Or anything to imply that I think on those lines? This thread was intended to discuss the logistical problems and how a more workable solution can be found - with responsibility to local and national government, parents and schools equally. I don't see why this is now turning into a personal attack, implying that I'm some kind of naive, brainwashed, teacher-hating idiot.

I'm not bored of the subject, I'm just pointing out that you could do a search and find lots of suggestions esp by those actually working in education.

No-one's trying to stop you talking about the problems of trying to care for young children whilst also work at home.

I guess what I'm saying is that parents need to be putting much more pressure on the govt to address structural solutions, and also to support teachers in their campaigns to make schools safer.

Unfortunately, rates of transmission are now so high that more drastic measures are necessary to make schools safer than they would have been in September when rates were very low.

GleamingBaubles thanks, I thought that was the case. Teaching unions haven't even been able to ensure that their members have safe working conditions and have been pushing for safer schools all along. It's bizarre how they're seen as all powerful by some.