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Do you think we will see worse numbers than April?

165 replies

hettyhooverdoover · 25/12/2020 22:13

I remember early April, deaths from Covid peaked to nearly 1k a day for a couple weeks. Is it going to get as bad again do you think? There wasn't much testing then but I wonder how many cases they had before the peak...:-(

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TheSunIsStillShining · 27/12/2020 15:18

@FourTeaFallOut

The extremely clinically vulnerable who aren't children and who aren't already immunised due to age are in group 4, and who are not excluded because of issues around immunity, but I think that nobody has any idea about how many of us there are after all those caveats. Grin
And a lot of conditions are not even classed to be in group 4. Me being one with those unrecognized conditions. :( So for me and my family it's house arrest for another year and a half?
PrincessNutNuts · 27/12/2020 15:45

God that sounds awful @TheSunIsStillShining.

And you'll have to wait until group 10? Shock

PrincessNutNuts · 27/12/2020 15:46

Fingers crossed that they add your condition in as things progress or get you in as standby in case someone doesn't turn up for their jab.

theThreeofWeevils · 27/12/2020 15:46

For those of you hoping for a massively accelerated vaccination programme, bear in mind that under COVAX, roll-out will be governed by global access rates (as well as the practical constraints)

'no country will receive enough doses to vaccinate more than 20% of its population until all countries in the financing group have been offered this amount

www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/covax-explainef

theThreeofWeevils · 27/12/2020 15:48

Oh ffs. /covax-explained.

FourTeaFallOut · 27/12/2020 16:17

I'm not sure anyone is convinced that Covax obligations are going to be much of a barrier to the vaccine roll out in the UK.

www.nbcnews.com/news/world/covid-19-vaccines-are-being-hoarded-rich-countries-poor-ones-n1251351

TheSunIsStillShining · 27/12/2020 16:57

@PrincessNutNuts

God that sounds awful *@TheSunIsStillShining*.

And you'll have to wait until group 10? Shock

Yup. I'm a citizen of an EU country, so I can hope that there I can get the Pfizer vaccine quicker.

Also, some scientists are saying that for patients with autoimmune conditions the mRNA vacc would be safer than the AZ one. But it's not more a hunch and based on prev knowledge, not actual data.
The trials have not been designed to answer this questions for obvious speed reasons.

Lumene · 27/12/2020 17:18

@WouldBeGood the numbers I gave were a demonstration of what would happen if doubling time remains at its current level, and stated as such.

How is that ‘scaremongering’ or ‘making out that everyone will die from Covid.’?!?

If you can’t look at the facts and numbers and how exponential growth would impact them, you can’t make a plan to avoid them happening.

MistletoeandGin · 27/12/2020 17:33

[quote Lumene]@WouldBeGood the numbers I gave were a demonstration of what would happen if doubling time remains at its current level, and stated as such.

How is that ‘scaremongering’ or ‘making out that everyone will die from Covid.’?!?

If you can’t look at the facts and numbers and how exponential growth would impact them, you can’t make a plan to avoid them happening.[/quote]
I mean, on the plus side the whole world will be dead soon using your calculations, so we won’t have to worry about Covid anymore.

MadameBlobby · 27/12/2020 17:58

[quote Lumene]@WouldBeGood the numbers I gave were a demonstration of what would happen if doubling time remains at its current level, and stated as such.

How is that ‘scaremongering’ or ‘making out that everyone will die from Covid.’?!?

If you can’t look at the facts and numbers and how exponential growth would impact them, you can’t make a plan to avoid them happening.[/quote]
But it won’t keep happening at that level as the virus will run out of hosts

At a rate of 128000 deaths a day the whole country would have the virus within a few days! Is that really feasible do you think.

PrincessNutNuts · 27/12/2020 18:02

@GleamingBaubles

We have a good chance of seeing lower death figures, due to improved treatments now. But that depends on hospitals not being overwhelmed.
Our local hospitals are full, ambulances are lined up unable to unload and doctors are having to climb in and out of the ambulances to treat them. We've just gone into Tier 4 yesterday.
Quartz2208 · 27/12/2020 18:09

because @Lumene your basic maths and doubling would have everyone in the world dying by the end of Spring.

Death rates have never doubled in the same way as case rates if you take the death rate as 1% (an overestimate if anything) to have 128000 deaths you would need 12 million people to be infected.Given the numbers of people coming before everyone in the country would have been infected by that point

PrincessNutNuts · 27/12/2020 18:12

Given that weekly average cases were about 16k per day 3 weeks ago and that has produced weekly average deaths of almost 500 per day this week even with Christmas reporting lag, I imagine this weeks average cases of 35,000 per day will lead to a corresponding rise in deaths to a thousand a day in about three weeks.

MistletoeandGin · 27/12/2020 18:15

@PrincessNutNuts

Given that weekly average cases were about 16k per day 3 weeks ago and that has produced weekly average deaths of almost 500 per day this week even with Christmas reporting lag, I imagine this weeks average cases of 35,000 per day will lead to a corresponding rise in deaths to a thousand a day in about three weeks.
Yet cases in March/April were estimated at around 100,000 a day with deaths of approx 1000, and that was with less knowledge around treatments. As a PP says, the death rate doesn’t tend to double alongside the infection rate.
TheSunIsStillShining · 27/12/2020 18:20

@PrincessNutNuts

Given that weekly average cases were about 16k per day 3 weeks ago and that has produced weekly average deaths of almost 500 per day this week even with Christmas reporting lag, I imagine this weeks average cases of 35,000 per day will lead to a corresponding rise in deaths to a thousand a day in about three weeks.
That might not be actually the case. It's dependent on what age group produces those numbers. IF the very high numbers are distributed within a lower age group than the number of deaths won't soar in parallel to the case numbers but will be at a lower level.

If you look at the heatmap (gov dashboard) it is quite clear that the studying/working age populus is the driver now.

So hopefully, whilst death numbers will correlate with case numbers, it might not be that direct. Fingers crossed.

Do you think we will see worse numbers than April?
TheSunIsStillShining · 27/12/2020 18:22

Looking at it again I might have just dismissed the absolute top row. I literally didn't see it until I zoomed in more. My brain doesn't want to see it.
So whilst my explanation is very possibly true - it is so for another scenario. Sorry about that.

PrincessNutNuts · 27/12/2020 18:52

@MistletoeandGin I'm operating under the assumption - possibly erroneously - that the 500 deaths daily average this week has been reduced by Christmas reporting lag and it's actually more like 700 in reality.

And that we're still not detecting all the cases.

But you're quite right. It's not as simple as cases double so deaths double.

PrincessNutNuts · 27/12/2020 18:56

@TheSunIsStillShining

Looking at it again I might have just dismissed the absolute top row. I literally didn't see it until I zoomed in more. My brain doesn't want to see it. So whilst my explanation is very possibly true - it is so for another scenario. Sorry about that.
Well you're not wrong are you? But that top row is horror.

And we've just had Christmas when a lot of working and studying age people will have spent prolonged time indoors with people they haven't done that with all year.

I'm absolutely dreading the next few weeks.

Just pinning all my hopes on the vaccine rollout so we don't have many more months like the next two. Sad

TheSunIsStillShining · 27/12/2020 19:38

I'd say you hopes are nothing more than that (sorry).
There is no actual strategy or Plan A, Plan B from this gov.
People are irresponsible - this has been proven over and over again in the last 11 months. Gov is useless - as proven.

Pinning hopes on vaccine is wishful thinking.

  1. There are only 3 approved ones Pfizer and Moderna (US) and Sinopharm's (China/UAE).
Demand is 7 billion doses x2. Supply - nowhere near that capacity.

Even if others are to be approved it still takes time to manufacture and to distribute.
I'm not being negative, it's basic supply/demand curves.

GleamingBaubles · 27/12/2020 19:45

Just to add a further note of reality/dementoring - we cannot vaccinate faster due to international agreements. Having vaccinated and unvaccinated mixing freely with lots of transmission going on is just asking for mutations that cause vaccine escape.
I hate to say it, but we need to have as few transmission going on as possible whilst slowly vaccinating the population.
It's the same as having most avenues of transmission suppressed EXCEPT in the young has driven selection pressures on mutations towards one that transmits more readily in the young. We have driven this.

PrincessNutNuts · 27/12/2020 19:47

@TheSunIsStillShining

I'd say you hopes are nothing more than that (sorry). There is no actual strategy or Plan A, Plan B from this gov. People are irresponsible - this has been proven over and over again in the last 11 months. Gov is useless - as proven.

Pinning hopes on vaccine is wishful thinking.

  1. There are only 3 approved ones Pfizer and Moderna (US) and Sinopharm's (China/UAE).
Demand is 7 billion doses x2. Supply - nowhere near that capacity.

Even if others are to be approved it still takes time to manufacture and to distribute.
I'm not being negative, it's basic supply/demand curves.

I am worried that the government are over promising again on the vaccines. And gambling on the supplies of the vaccines arriving at the right times to at least give the appearance of fulfilling their promises.
Quartz2208 · 27/12/2020 19:58

I suspect they have to otherwise the truth is that the current strain is ripping through so fast most of us will have at least come into contact with someone who is positive by the end of March

Fizbosshoes · 27/12/2020 20:38

The Oxford /AZ vaccine is due to be approved within days, I believe....

TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 27/12/2020 20:47

[quote TheSunIsStillShining]@PrincessNutNuts
Rishi is an idiot.
Vaccines have an effect on how sever the virus will be within the host (from no symptoms to very mild). It does jack about transmission as far as we know now.
What that idiot is spouting is basically vaccinate those who are most likely to be seriously ill/die and let the rest of the population acquire natural herd immunity. This will lull the population into a false sense of
normalcy. People will stop SD and masks and any precautions.
And this has been proven to be the wrong approach over and over again. And yet they still do it but more subtly this time.
But it doesn't work like that. Long covid and hospitalization potentially effects all ages.
We also don't know how long the vaccine is boosting our immune system. We don't know if we will have enough doses for a potential next year mass vaccination. We don't know how those getting the Pfizer now will react to subsequent AZ vaccine. We don't really know how effective
There are so many unknowns that at this point we should be playing it safe and not playing russian roulette.
So far Rishi's gun was loaded and we are paying the price of his stupidity.[/quote]
You know, respectfully, I think you're wrong about him being an idiot in this instance. I absolutely agree herd immunity as you're thinking of it is the wrong strategy in that ideally you want to be vaccinating everyone but life's messier than that.

15 million of the most vulnerable are due to get vaccinated by Jan/Feb under this government's plan. They are supposed to be targeting the most vulnerable strategically so as to minimise deaths as far as possible. That strategy is aiming to cut 80-99% of deaths, I keep reading, and reduce the strain on the hospitals. Drastically lower deaths will minimise fear considerably leading naturally to lower compliance with social distancing, as you say.

But you have nearly 12 million children who aren't going to be vaccinated and mostly aren't seriously affected by the virus.

By the spring, several million people also will have had the virus already - how many exactly, I don't know but this new strain is so contagious, we can comfortably say several million. The vast majority of them will thus have also a degree of immunity as a result even if it's not long term (but it could be c.17 years). They need to be vaccinated, ideally, but not urgently.

All in all, that adds up to a significant reduction in the damage this virus can do to us as a society. I seriously don't believe large numbers of people would want to sit in/social distance beyond that on the basis they might get Long Covid or might feel pretty unwell when they do pick it up. No it's not ideal but people are chomping at the bit to be set free even now. You can't argue with the fact many will want to make their own risk assessments and get on with life.

And I honestly think we have enough data to say that most people with Long Covid do pick up by about the 12 week mark - it's a v small minority who will have bigger problems long term. No, that's not certain and those people matter too, it's just I very much doubt it's going to be a big issue for many. Certainly it's not something to shut society down for.

We have to be realistic. This virus is NOT a threat to most beyond making some feel really rotten. People are absolutely desperate to get on with life. I really can't see deaths falling hugely and large numbers of people under 60 sitting at home voluntarily and keeping apart on the basis they aren't vaccinated and they are at risk of Long Covid.

Rishi isn't stupid, on that basis. He knows we need people out and about working and living to prop the economy up. It would cause greater harm to shut everyone away and damage the economy more past a certain point. Sorry, but that's reality.

TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 27/12/2020 20:47

I am worried that the government are over promising again on the vaccines. And gambling on the supplies of the vaccines arriving at the right times to at least give the appearance of fulfilling their promises

No, we know full well we have many millions of doses of the Oxford vaccine lined up. It's been sorted for months.