NHS staff now come after care homes for vaccine

[UnlimitedUnspecific]

The government have just changed their plans - now care homes will get the vaccine before the NHS, which in reality means instead of the NHS at this point since there are only 800,000 vaccines and 1.2 million people in care homes.

I am furious. The PPE provided to doctors and nurses doesn't properly protect them from the HUGE viral load of a patient ill enough to be hospitalised. Only yesterday the government admitted that the rate of Covid-19 infections caught INSIDE hospitals was far too high, and yet doctors and nurses will have to wait, what I expect will be weeks or months for a vaccination. In the meantime, their health and lives and those of their families, and those of other patients in hospital, other staff in hospital, people whose work takes them into hospital or transport workers serving hospitals - all at high risk.

(posted this on another thread already, but it will be lost in the comments)

Care homes can be shielded, NHS staff have a plastic pinny and a paper mask.

@Pomegranatespompom

If you don't vaccinate NHS staff - services will close. There are already staffing issues.

Yes indeed

and to the private dr again - I am also involved in clinical trials in a professional capacity, I have extensive medical knowledge. You should wind in the personal criticism and condescension, even though you are a doctor and highly qualified and above average intelligence - so are other people on this threaad.

@Pomegranatespompom

If you don't vaccinate NHS staff - services will close. There are already staffing issues.

100%. And this will be much worse throughout winter.

The greatest benefit will be to vaccinate nhs/care staff. We are teetering on a brink. That's if you want someone to look after you/your relative.

Exactly, a priority list was worked out by experts, they should stick to it.

They are doing.

Care home residents and staff have been the top priority all along, followed by frontline HCPs and the over 80s in category 2

Why dentists? They’re back open with enhanced PPE for appointments. I haven’t seen them on any priority list

They are front line HCPs and so are priority 2

@UnlimitedUnspecific

and to the private dr again - I am also involved in clinical trials in a professional capacity, I have extensive medical knowledge. You should wind in the personal criticism and condescension, even though you are a doctor and highly qualified and above average intelligence - so are other people on this threaad.

where did I say I am a private doctor? I am sorry if you find my posts disagreeing with you condescending or patronising. I have re-read them and can't see it but you are entitled to your opinion. As am I

That doesn’t mean the nhs gets to take it when there are more vulnerable people out there. The vaccine does not belong to the nhs. It is not available to them as an option to protect their workers. They get it as determined by the JCVI priority list. Safe working practices and adequate PPE is what they have to keep their workers safe at the moment

This is the crux of it really. OP personally attacking people who disagree won't change anything.

@RoseAndRose

Exactly, a priority list was worked out by experts, they should stick to it.

They are doing.

Care home residents and staff have been the top priority all along, followed by frontline HCPs and the over 80s in category 2

This is true, though I do worry that the logistics have not been thought through. Upthread a poster in a GP practice said they could not feasibly do the vaccinations and someone clearly in NHS Logistics said there was a good chance of vaccines being wasted due to splitting batches and taking them to care homes.

Also I had no problem with the priority list until yesterday when the plans to vaccinate the NHS first were announced. Obviously it is much worse to give something then take it away.

Plus the situation has changed in that there are now only 800,000 doses, with Brexit meaning the remaining dose may never get here. Plus AZ Oxford vaccine is not approved yet, and may be significantly less effective. So who knows when there will be more vaccines?
Just worrying now, rather than selfish pandering for vaccines (as suggested by the doctor who doesn't work for the nhs)

"where did I say I am a private doctor? I am sorry if you find my posts disagreeing with you condescending or patronising. I have re-read them and can't see it but you are entitled to your opinion. As am I"

I think it is clear that saying someone is thinking of their own personal situation is basically saying they are selfish.
And the rest of your post was just patronising.

I agree, to agree to something then change your mind the next day is pretty rubbish even for this government.

Isn't this academic, until it's worked out how to get the Pfizer vaccine out into the community, rather than being stored and administered in hospitals?

Maybe I've misunderstood, but isn't that exactly why elderly people in care homes were unofficially 'demoted' to the number two spot after hospital patients and NHS staff, because of the logistical issues to do with the temperature requirements of the vaccine?

@Pomegranatespompom

I agree, to agree to something then change your mind the next day is pretty rubbish even for this government.

Yes - the NHS were expressly told they would start getting vaccinated next Tuesday!

@UnlimitedUnspecific

What's your plan for shielding residents in care homes?

I think the bigger problem is with their communications. It all seems very vague and non-commital. I agree care homes and staff should be first however it was wrong to suggest that actually frontline nhs frontline staff would be first when it now transpires they aren't.
Anyway all these groups fall into the top two priority groups and I very much hope the initial batches cover both camps fully before moving on to the next priority group.

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@UnlimitedUnspecific

What's your plan for shielding residents in care homes?[/quote]
I think that is not a task for one poster. The failure of an employer to keep its workforce safe in the workplace - a legal obligation - leading to the deaths and debilitation of tens of thousands is a separate matter and currently the task facing the NHS

@Frazzled2207

I think the bigger problem is with their communications. It all seems very vague and non-commital. I agree care homes and staff should be first however it was wrong to suggest that actually frontline nhs frontline staff would be first when it now transpires they aren't. Anyway all these groups fall into the top two priority groups and I very much hope the initial batches cover both camps fully before moving on to the next priority group.

Yes, the appalling communications (and planning) is definitely a large part of the fallout of this U-turn (or is it a 360 degree turn now)

Where did you get your stat of 1.2 million people in care homes? The latest data from ONS is a few years old but says 410,000 residents, a third of your total.

Having said that, I do think we need to look at quality of life and wider effects. Care home residents are at higher risk of dying - but the average care home 'stay' is sadly only 3 years, much of which is often already suffering from serious illness. An NHS worker who falls seriously ill, or a vulnerable 60 or 20 year old visiting a hospital who catches it from an asymptomatic healthcare worker, has so.many more years to lose. Also, often these illnesses have been caught during hospital stays, again it will be protective of the elderly to have NHS frontline vaccinated.

Of course we should protect the elderly, and those who care for them. As a 30-something who can work from home I'm miserably but fully resigned to being at the back of the queue and socially distancing until late into next year. But prioritising care homes over healthcare workers seems a mistake.to me.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/care-homes-market-study-summary-of-final-report/care-homes-market-study-summary-of-final-report

The failure of an employer to keep its workforce safe in the workplace - a legal obligation - leading to the deaths and debilitation of tens of thousands is a separate matter and currently the task facing the NHS.

Again, the nhs isn’t in charge of the vaccine priority list. They can’t just decide to use the vaccine for their own workers ahead of those who are more vulnerable. This is not an employer-worker health protection situation. This is a mass vaccine rollout.

@OverTheRubicon

Where did you get your stat of 1.2 million people in care homes? The latest data from ONS is a few years old but says 410,000 residents, a third of your total.

Having said that, I do think we need to look at quality of life and wider effects. Care home residents are at higher risk of dying - but the average care home 'stay' is sadly only 3 years, much of which is often already suffering from serious illness. An NHS worker who falls seriously ill, or a vulnerable 60 or 20 year old visiting a hospital who catches it from an asymptomatic healthcare worker, has so.many more years to lose. Also, often these illnesses have been caught during hospital stays, again it will be protective of the elderly to have NHS frontline vaccinated.

Of course we should protect the elderly, and those who care for them. As a 30-something who can work from home I'm miserably but fully resigned to being at the back of the queue and socially distancing until late into next year. But prioritising care homes over healthcare workers seems a mistake.to me.

I must admit to hearing it on David Lamy MP's radio broadcast on LBC this morning.

But if it were 410,000 residents, then that is just right for the 800,000 doses with 2 doses needed per person. Still none left after that.

Care homes are back on first because of the mess with care homes in lockdown 1. It is the politicians trying to make up for that. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not with regard to batch sizes/transport issues etc. My 45 year old consultant doctor neighbour (Covid ward) and mother of 4 kids does not have antibodies and is on her knees with exhaustion and she was meant to get this vaccine (her DH is vulnerable). Hopefully it is just another question of a few weeks but if not, I would not be surprised if she takes a break for a while, she certainly needs it mentally speaking. I think the idea with care homes is to facilitate visits once vaccinations have been given as these family visits are such a lifeline for care home residents, of all ages. However, will these care homes actually start letting visitors in once their residents have been vaccinated? Many are saying they don't have the staff to go back to "normal" visits. Therefore, I do share the opinion that NHS staff should be vaccinated first (although the point about 50 per cent plus having antibodies is an interesting one). Certainly I believe NHS vulnerable and elderly staff should be first. However, arguing about the priority list will cause delays.

I’m sure the GPs going into care homes will be using the half an hour COVID tests before they go and if positive isolating if negative wearing full PPE don’t see why they would need to be vaccinated themselves first none of the care staff nurses and doctors if needed caring for the elderly up until now have been vaccinated.

@PurpleDaisies

The failure of an employer to keep its workforce safe in the workplace - a legal obligation - leading to the deaths and debilitation of tens of thousands is a separate matter and currently the task facing the NHS.

Again, the nhs isn’t in charge of the vaccine priority list. They can’t just decide to use the vaccine for their own workers ahead of those who are more vulnerable. This is not an employer-worker health protection situation. This is a mass vaccine rollout.

Yes, I know but I was taking the whole context, including the useless PPE that most NHS frontline workers treating Covid-19 patients are still having to use. The PPE is not adequate for the huge viral load being discharged by the patients needing hospital care. A vaccine would be another alternative, hence why frontline staff are second on the priority list anyway, in addition to that benefiting the NHS and patients as a whole if NHS staff don't get infected.