NHS staff now come after care homes for vaccine

[UnlimitedUnspecific]

The government have just changed their plans - now care homes will get the vaccine before the NHS, which in reality means instead of the NHS at this point since there are only 800,000 vaccines and 1.2 million people in care homes.

I am furious. The PPE provided to doctors and nurses doesn't properly protect them from the HUGE viral load of a patient ill enough to be hospitalised. Only yesterday the government admitted that the rate of Covid-19 infections caught INSIDE hospitals was far too high, and yet doctors and nurses will have to wait, what I expect will be weeks or months for a vaccination. In the meantime, their health and lives and those of their families, and those of other patients in hospital, other staff in hospital, people whose work takes them into hospital or transport workers serving hospitals - all at high risk.

(posted this on another thread already, but it will be lost in the comments)

Care homes can be shielded, NHS staff have a plastic pinny and a paper mask.

Well given how many people on here saying they work for NHS and dont want the vaccine...

It’s right that care home occupants and their carers get the vaccine first if it is possible.
Everyone else needs to be patient

Noone seem to have mentioned that care homes are not just for the elderly.
Individual with learning disabilities live in residential homes and are also high risk of becoming ill and hospitalised due to covid, but unlike individuals in elderly care it is almost impossible to isolate individuals to their rooms so if there is an outbreak all resident and staff are at a high risk of contracting it

@PrivateD00r

I completely disagree with you. Firstly, care home residents are suffering more than anyone, through not being able to see family. We know this leads to a decline in their physical and mental health. They need to be given the vaccine in order to facilitate visitation. They are also incredibly vulnerable to serious illness with the virus.

We have been at this since March, we can wait another few weeks. We are still lucky that we will be offered it very soon. I agree the PPE is inadequate, I recently caught covid in work myself so I do understand. But as a group, care home residents are the most at risk from this virus so they must be prioritised. It is the right thing to do.

I disagree with you on some points.

1. elderly are not suffering any more than some others.
2. If there are not enough doctors/nurses (NHS) then elderly (as well as others) won't get the care needed. So it's a lose-lose situation
3. I feel for them very much on a personal/emotional level, but on a logical level they are/should not be the first priority.

When there is a very limited number of vaccines (400k) that is sure to not be enough for the 1.2m. There are more than 400k doctors/nurses, yes, but they could be prioritized by who they work with and what field.

1. wait another few weeks.... well, it's not another few weeks. It's months for the next batch from pfizer. And god knows how long for any other.

1. Also the one that has the highest % of efficacy should be given to those who are exposed most.

Also the one that has the highest % of efficacy should be given to those who are exposed most.

I don’t agree. It should be those at greatest risk of dying.

@cptartapp

I'm a practice nurse. GP's themselves won't be going into care homes vaccinating anyone, that would be the nurses' job. Except we've been told we won't be doing it. My clinics are full of other things already for weeks. I don't know who will, the district nursing service is in crisis already. The sad thing is that by the time the elderly care home cohort are all vaccinated and other groups are started on, a significant percentage of the former will have already died of other things.

So after scrapping yesterday's plan (announced to huge fanfare with a list of 53 hospitals etc), the government have changed to the original priority list but with no plan and apparently no idea who will give the vaccines and when.

I also suspect this does not bode well for the other vaccines, e.g. AZ Oxford.
I suspect the government know they only have one vaccine that effectively protects the very elderly and that is the Pfizer one, but due to Brexit they are likely to only get the initial 800,000 doses so are now obliged to give those to the very elderly and everyone else will have to wait for a very much less effective vaccine as and when that is approved...

If that is true, I worry about the elderly who do not live in care homes. My parents are in their 70s living independently at home and won't get the Pfizer vaccine and it seems that may be the only one that works in their age group, otherwise why is the government doing a U-turn from yesterday's plans?

@PurpleDaisies

Also the one that has the highest % of efficacy should be given to those who are exposed most.

I don’t agree. It should be those at greatest risk of dying.

I understand from a personal pov and agree. But if you look at the big picture: if grandma dies x people will be sad and heartbroken. If doctor X (ICU) dies there's a potential cascade of how many dies will be related to that ICU being understaffed :(

If it was the case of having ongoing supply of vaccines and just wait your turn, then your reasoning would have some legs to stand on.
When we have a very small batch and don't have any other deliveries booked in, then I don't see the logic.

I do think that the majority of people would have understood if gov laid out a plan and explained why any group comes first with logic, rational arguments. But instead they:

• reason only on an emotional level
• they keep changing their minds depending on public opinion. This is not what a gov body is supposed to be doing. And it undermines their every decision from now on.

I maybe wouldn't agree (actually who cares?), but would see reason and accept whatever their decision was based on science and keeping to it.

otherwise why is the government doing a U-turn from yesterday's plans

Because they’ve been reminded that they should follow the JCVI priority list and to work harder to make the logistics work so those at the top of the list get vaccinated first.

Why does it need to be a massive conspiracy?

But if you look at the big picture: if grandma dies x people will be sad and heartbroken.

It isn’t just grandma dying. It’s grandma and fifteen of her fellow care home residents.

I (personally) don't think it's a conspiracy. I think it's their usual idiotic populist fuckup.

@PurpleDaisies

otherwise why is the government doing a U-turn from yesterday's plans

Because they’ve been reminded that they should follow the JCVI priority list and to work harder to make the logistics work so those at the top of the list get vaccinated first.

Why does it need to be a massive conspiracy?

I never said conspiracy but the post above yours is correct. there is no other currently approved vaccine and no other deliveries have arrived.

There are 800,000 doses in the country of the sole approved vaccine.

It is adding-up, not conspiracy.

We already know the AZ Oxford vaccine is likely to have lower efficacy and not necessary work in the very elderly. That is facts, not conspiracy.

I think health and social care workforce should be the first priority. Why? because many of them are in close contact with active cases, more likely to catch it, more likely to be asymptomatic or have mild symptoms whilst passing it on to the vulnerable. Secondly the workforce is younger and have dependents, but many themselves are vulnerable with underlying conditions. Look after the workforce, they will look after those they care for. No staff, no care.

Second priority should be those over 75, in care homes and community.

As things are they seem to be prioritising people who may be end of their life in care homes whilst forgetting the thousands of elderly who receive support in their own homes, and younger people with care needs who are also vulnerable.

But yes, they are now following the original priority list.

But yesterday they had a different plan - a realistic worked-out plan. Now they have a plan, which 2 previous posters have already pointed out is 1) not very easy to implement by GPs and practice nurses 2) not very easy to implement logistically and may lead to wasted vaccines

@MiniTheMinx

I think health and social care workforce should be the first priority. Why? because many of them are in close contact with active cases, more likely to catch it, more likely to be asymptomatic or have mild symptoms whilst passing it on to the vulnerable. Secondly the workforce is younger and have dependents, but many themselves are vulnerable with underlying conditions. Look after the workforce, they will look after those they care for. No staff, no care.

Second priority should be those over 75, in care homes and community.

As things are they seem to be prioritising people who may be end of their life in care homes whilst forgetting the thousands of elderly who receive support in their own homes, and younger people with care needs who are also vulnerable.

I agree with all these points.

@unchienandalusia

Those in care homes are lost at risk of needing hospitalisation and of dying. Right they should go first. Hopefully NHS frontline workers not far behind.

I'm not liking this whose more important than who rhetoric I'm seeing here.

Yep.

Everyone has their own reasons for wanting to go first OP.

@titchy

Surely if the most likely groups to get CV are vaccinated first, that means fewer hospital admissions and therefore a safer working environment for clinical staff?

That's always been the aim of lockdown, and the reason behind the vax prioritisation (only changing because of the storage issues of the first approved vax - which presumably have been sorted).

Front line staff are doing an amazing job, don't get me wrong, but surely you'd like to see fewer infected patients?

I didn't think that many care home residents who caught covid went to hospital? I thought most of them received palliative care in the care home and were mostly under DNR orders. The average age of people in ICU is much younger.

The government have done nothing but U turns throughout all of this. I think we would be wise to take everything said with a huge pinch of salt.

Ultimately there is enough vaccine on order to ensure that by early next year all care home residents and staff and all nhs staff plus other social care staff receive a vaccine.

The logistics of who gets what where and when are really difficult. I doubt that every care home resident will receive a vaccine before they start on nhs workers. I suspect it will be a case of doing things area by area to ensure that the delivery of vaccine is as swift and efficient as possible.

Let's not get to wound up in the small details but look forward to a time in the near future where covid is no longer the threat it is today.

This is about who is at greater risk. That is undoubtedly care homes.

^ this is what it comes down to.

Will probably be massively flamed for saying this but I'm beyond caring now.

I think the priority lists are really wrong and I'm frankly disgusted at NHS staff being thrown under the bus.

I would prioritise them along with care home workers and teachers.

I would then prioritise younger people (those below 80) who are clinically vulnerable.

Then those in their 60s and 70s.

I'm not sure after than whether it's fair to allow younger people to risk long COVID or continue destroying their mental health, both which could have horrible for the rest of their lives. And could place an even greater burden financially on the NHS, who'll be left treating them.

Before people accuse me of being a granny killer, I believe everyone's lives are as important as eachother. But I also think there has to be an element of considering what all the long term consequences will be, and frankly what is more tragic, a 90 year old dying, or a 60 year old? My views are probably affected my the deaths of several very young family members from cancer. Utterly devastating. On the other hand when my very elderly grandparents died I was of course sad, I still miss them. But it's far easier to accept, knowing they had lived a long life, and with two of my grandparents, I was also relieved knowing they were no longer suffering as they had declined so horribly near the end of their lives.

I think we massively let the elderly down in this country (although they are not the only group). There hasn't been anywhere near enough focus on quality of life rather than trying to ever increase life expectancy at the cost of living in good health and dignity.

I really would like to see the 60s/70s group being considered more- many of whom are still working, providing childcare for grandchildren, and by today's standards are too young to die.

As much as I want the NHS staff to be protected (and honestly admire them for everything they have done and are still doing) - it is also imperative that those who are most at risk of dying are the priority, and that is people in care homes. Because that is what will have the biggest impact in reducing the strain on those NHS staff.

Giving the vaccine to those most likely to die, can only benefit the NHS front line.

@MrsFrisbyMouse

As much as I want the NHS staff to be protected (and honestly admire them for everything they have done and are still doing) - it is also imperative that those who are most at risk of dying are the priority, and that is people in care homes. Because that is what will have the biggest impact in reducing the strain on those NHS staff.

Giving the vaccine to those most likely to die, can only benefit the NHS front line.

NHS Covid-19 wards are full of people aged 45 years and above who do not live in care homes. As a pp said, unfortunately many very elderly and frail are not in ICUs. This will not benefit the NHS front line or NHS as a whole as much as vaccinating the NHS front line.

@RainbowParadise
I know you don't care, but I agree and I'll stand with you in the flames.
Just so you know that you are not going to be burned at the stakes alone :)

My DH comes into contact with hundreds on every shift. He wear a plastic pinny and a paper mask not dissimilar to the ones worn by the public.

I am so sorry OP. This is shameful that the PPE is so inadequate. Just how the government squandered funds and made such an appalling job of it should be a national disgrace.

@ChloeDecker

My DH comes into contact with hundreds on every shift. He wear a plastic pinny and a paper mask not dissimilar to the ones worn by the public.

I am so sorry OP. This is shameful that the PPE is so inadequate. Just how the government squandered funds and made such an appalling job of it should be a national disgrace.

Thank you. Some ICUs have proper PPE, not all. And definitely general Covid-19 'cohort' wards have totally inadequate PPE - that is where the hundreds and hundreds of patients who need hospital care but not ICU care go, and they are releasing huge viral loads. That is why all hospitals are basically mass contamination zones all over. The failure to stockpile PPE from January and February and the corruption since March will hopefully not be without consequences in the long run.