NHS staff now come after care homes for vaccine

[UnlimitedUnspecific]

The government have just changed their plans - now care homes will get the vaccine before the NHS, which in reality means instead of the NHS at this point since there are only 800,000 vaccines and 1.2 million people in care homes.

I am furious. The PPE provided to doctors and nurses doesn't properly protect them from the HUGE viral load of a patient ill enough to be hospitalised. Only yesterday the government admitted that the rate of Covid-19 infections caught INSIDE hospitals was far too high, and yet doctors and nurses will have to wait, what I expect will be weeks or months for a vaccination. In the meantime, their health and lives and those of their families, and those of other patients in hospital, other staff in hospital, people whose work takes them into hospital or transport workers serving hospitals - all at high risk.

(posted this on another thread already, but it will be lost in the comments)

Care homes can be shielded, NHS staff have a plastic pinny and a paper mask.

After reading that it will take a month after vaccination for immunity to build up & up to now they think immunity may start dropping after an additional 3 months, this thing won't be over for a long time. By the time the last groups have been vaccinated, the first group's immunity could be dropping off & cases could start again. I know they haven't had long enough to properly test the life of the vaccine but surely there is some form of computer modelling to give them some idea?

Care home residents staff and residents should be priority. I work in a care home and it had a outbreak of covid. I'm not a nurse and was caring for covid residents and was in a small space for a long amount of time seeing to personal needs. Carers also work long hours and paid very low for what we do. We have been treated really bad by the government at the beginning. Also think of the residents and there family's who have not seen each other for a long time now. I'm glad care homes and staff are number 1 on the list. NHS front line staff eg icu doctors and nurses should get the vacinne as priority to.

“The end result is that those 8 elderly care home residents, get vaccines while a critically vulnerable 14 year old transplant patient, or an NHS worker getting heavy viral load does not.”

a) The vaccine is only licensed for over 16 year olds.

b) If you vaccinate elderly people in care homes, then this will help everyone as they are high users of NHS services, need many care staff to support them and ability to social distance is limited and their families will be able to see them again.

I despair about attitudes the elderly and understanding of how health and social care works in this country. Care staff are amazing and do not get the support and admiration they deserve.

I read ideally extremely vunrable first, in a list of priorities NHS staff come after elderly in case homes. I agree with this, esspecisaly now my NHS trust have brought in twice a week staff swabbing. In practice it is easy to admister in a hospital where the have pharmacy facilities to store the vaccine at -70. So that is why NHS staff will get it. I fight to the front and saying it's not fair is really not right.

@Spudina

Patients have done into the hospital where I work, for an unrelated issue and died of Covid after there has been an outbreak on the ward. Cancer surgeries, and other life saving surgeries are being cancelled as we can’t do them safely. That’s why it makes sense to vaccinate NHS staff first.

Yep. We’re also running out of beds in the covid negative wards and having to put covid negative patients in the covid positive wards in the next bed to positive patients. Funnily enough the negative patient then tests positive a few days later. Not going to take long for someone to die from this and the nhs will have the arse sued off them.

Freezers and vaccine arrived at our trust. Was told it takes 5 days to defrost before they can use it ( info from pharmacist).
We start vaccinations from next wk I believe.

No. Not all nhs staff get the full ppe you see on telly.
I work on an elderly care ( dementia ward) we get covid patients. We still wear pinny, gloves and a paper mask. You only wear nearly full ppe if doing aerosol based treatment ie cpap or intubation etc.
Covid wards , paper masks and if lucky ffp2.
Please don't believe everything you see on the telly.
I had covid. My daughter had covid. We lost a neighbour to covid. Staff members with ptsd from being ventilated themselves due to covid. Staff dying due to covid.
I'm personally broken by what I saw and had many days of firsts.

@RainbowParadise

Will probably be massively flamed for saying this but I'm beyond caring now.

I think the priority lists are really wrong and I'm frankly disgusted at NHS staff being thrown under the bus.

I would prioritise them along with care home workers and teachers.

I would then prioritise younger people (those below 80) who are clinically vulnerable.

Then those in their 60s and 70s.

I'm not sure after than whether it's fair to allow younger people to risk long COVID or continue destroying their mental health, both which could have horrible for the rest of their lives. And could place an even greater burden financially on the NHS, who'll be left treating them.

Before people accuse me of being a granny killer, I believe everyone's lives are as important as eachother. But I also think there has to be an element of considering what all the long term consequences will be, and frankly what is more tragic, a 90 year old dying, or a 60 year old? My views are probably affected my the deaths of several very young family members from cancer. Utterly devastating. On the other hand when my very elderly grandparents died I was of course sad, I still miss them. But it's far easier to accept, knowing they had lived a long life, and with two of my grandparents, I was also relieved knowing they were no longer suffering as they had declined so horribly near the end of their lives.

I think we massively let the elderly down in this country (although they are not the only group). There hasn't been anywhere near enough focus on quality of life rather than trying to ever increase life expectancy at the cost of living in good health and dignity.

I really would like to see the 60s/70s group being considered more- many of whom are still working, providing childcare for grandchildren, and by today's standards are too young to die.

^^ I feel exactly the same as this. Elderly people in care homes are generally at end of life stage. Their quality of life is generally poor. It seems completely ridiculous to vaccinate this cohort; their Carers, yes, but the elderly residents, no.

The average life expectancy in a care home is 1-2 years. I have great sympathy for the situation care homes have been put in, but among most of my colleagues the underlying cold hard thoughts are that vaccinating this cohort first, is not the most cost effective use of a limited vaccine.
As a nurse of thirty years, I have long thought quality over quantity when it comes to preserving life. Preserving it at all costs is not always best.

Giving a vaccination, so that the person's risk of dying is similar to that of an u50 is hardly 'preserving at all costs'

If you had an accident and had to live out the rest of your life in a carehome (could be as short as 1 year left, but might be a decade or more, no-one knows) would you be happy about someone deciding you weren't worth preventative medicine? And that it's Ok to leave you unable to have visitors because of the lack of that preventative medicine?

I am frankly horrified at many of the posts on this thread.

Elderly people in care homes are generally at end of life stage. Their quality of life is generally poor. It seems completely ridiculous to vaccinate this cohort

People are misunderstanding what the main objective is (and always has been).

Not to overwhelm the NHS.

It’s elderly people (not exclusively those in care homes) who put most pressure on the hospital system. So they’re first in line.

An alternative would have been to offer only palliative care to people over a certain age with a severe form of the disease. But they obviously decided that was too unpalatable.

The average life expectancy in a care home is 1-2 years.

Do you have a source for this? I don’t think that is accurate.

Was told it takes 5 days to defrost before they can use it.

No, it takes 3h to defrost in the fridge, and then it has a 5 day expiry in the fridge.

@TheKeatingFive

Elderly people in care homes are generally at end of life stage. Their quality of life is generally poor. It seems completely ridiculous to vaccinate this cohort

People are misunderstanding what the main objective is (and always has been).

Not to overwhelm the NHS.

It’s elderly people (not exclusively those in care homes) who put most pressure on the hospital system. So they’re first in line.

An alternative would have been to offer only palliative care to people over a certain age with a severe form of the disease. But they obviously decided that was too unpalatable.

Yes to this.

And I understand why healthcare staff feel as they do. It’s a hard blow to get it changed at this point.

It’s a hard blow to get it changed at this point

I know this has been said many time, but it has not changes at this point

HCPs and the over 80s have always been priority 2.

The time to overturn that was between September (JVCI draft list published) and late November (final version). Charities were campaigning all that time to get CEV treated differently (and succeeded) so that was a window when change was possible.

Yes it makes sense to vaccinate those in priority 2 whilst people are still working in the logistics of getting the vaccine to priority 1 people (or priority 1 people to the vaccine). That did not make priority 2 the top priority.

One logistics solved, then of course the published criteria need to be followed, and those in priority 1 should not be passed over for those in lower priorities

How on earth do you think nhs workers should be prioritised over elderly and vulnerable care home residents. Care home residents have suffered the most during this pandemic, they haven't seen there families for months now, they have had some off the highest fatalities in the U.K. and not to mention a huge decline in mental health.
It is impossible to shield care home residents as you say, because they have a massive staff team looking after them, not to mention visiting district nurses, gps and social workers.
They absolutely deserve this vaccine first

@nether

It’s a hard blow to get it changed at this point

I know this has been said many time, but it has not changes at this point

HCPs and the over 80s have always been priority 2.

The time to overturn that was between September (JVCI draft list published) and late November (final version). Charities were campaigning all that time to get CEV treated differently (and succeeded) so that was a window when change was possible.

Yes it makes sense to vaccinate those in priority 2 whilst people are still working in the logistics of getting the vaccine to priority 1 people (or priority 1 people to the vaccine). That did not make priority 2 the top priority.

One logistics solved, then of course the published criteria need to be followed, and those in priority 1 should not be passed over for those in lower priorities

Yes I have recognised it was always the priority from JCVI.

It doesn’t mean it’s not a big disappointment for messaging outside of this to change. People were ready to start and now won’t be.

It’s tough . I am NHS frontline staff, dealing with symptomatic COVID patients in a plastic apron and surgical mask. I caught covid in April this way and have real fears about hospital transmission. I am seeing patients with strokes and limb loss due to Covid Including some very young people .

But I think it reasonable that the MOST vulnérable ( care home residents and staff) go first. We need to be patient.

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

Was told it takes 5 days to defrost before they can use it.

No, it takes 3h to defrost in the fridge, and then it has a 5 day expiry in the fridge.

Thank you. They probably got mixed up.

@cptartapp

The average life expectancy in a care home is 1-2 years. I have great sympathy for the situation care homes have been put in, but among most of my colleagues the underlying cold hard thoughts are that vaccinating this cohort first, is not the most cost effective use of a limited vaccine. As a nurse of thirty years, I have long thought quality over quantity when it comes to preserving life. Preserving it at all costs is not always best.

1-2 years many people I know have lived over 10 years in a care home, where are you getting your numbers from

questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2017-09-05/8937

Near the end of the page it says average stay for an elderly resident in a care home ending in death was 26 months. Obviously there are people that live longer, but that's an average.

@dewisant2020

How on earth do you think nhs workers should be prioritised over elderly and vulnerable care home residents. Care home residents have suffered the most during this pandemic, they haven't seen there families for months now, they have had some off the highest fatalities in the U.K. and not to mention a huge decline in mental health. It is impossible to shield care home residents as you say, because they have a massive staff team looking after them, not to mention visiting district nurses, gps and social workers. They absolutely deserve this vaccine first

Maybe because they are far too young to die and having to put themselves at enormous risk in the course of their jobs, to look after the rest of us? I include care workers in this by the way, some of whom have quite rightly pointed out on this thread that they are undervalued and underpaid. This is so true, and they should absolutely be vaccinated first along with NHS staff. This would also have the advantage of protecting care homes residents.

Why do you think that so many very elderly people died in the first wave of coronavirus? Nothing to do with the fact that they were very old and sadly probably with many other health conditions too? I'm fully expecting to be told I must hate elderly people for daring to point that out. As ever there's all the usual comments on this thread- 'I despair of the way the elderly are viewed in this country' etc etc. I don't think that people on this thread have been uncaring about the elderly- I don't understand how suggesting that the priorities should be slightly different in who is vaccinated first equals being uncaring towards the elderly.

A nurse who has been directly treating younger COVID patients mentioned on this thread about younger patients having strokes and losing limbs as a result of this virus. Does no one see the bigger human tragedy in this? And looking at this in a cold hearted way, what will be the cost to the NHS going forwards too?

I agree that it has been horrendous for people in care homes being unable to see their families throughout this (I really don't like the comments that they have suffered worse than anyone else though- everyone has suffered for multiple reasons- many people's mental health has suffered massively). I think this comes down to the way we decided to 'protect' them though. I think we need to look after the elderly far better and this should mean prioritising quality of life over quantity and not infantilising them the way that seems to happen. My gran had an awful accident at 90, she went from being an incredibly capable woman who was swinging my chunky two year old around to being paralysed and slowly dying over four months, with delirium and constant pain, loss of dignity. The effect on my mental health and that of my family to see her in that way was horrendous and being told by a nurse that we would have to accept a new 'quality of life' for her now was infuriating. It was a relief when she died and was no longer suffering. It made me more convinced than ever that quality of life over quantity is so so important and we should be doing far more to ensure the elderly have this.

I do wonder if it was a mistake to isolate dementia patients from their families for months on end. They will have between limited and no understanding as to why they can't see their loved ones. To me that policy is crueller than the (high I know) risk of contracting and dying from Covid.

It’s bitterly disappointing. I’m going to take leave, my DS has a health concern, I couldn’t move out for 7 months, i just couldn’t. As the government have decided my family and I don’t deserve protection- I’ll do what’s right for my family.
I don’t think Im more deserving than carers/over 80s. My disappointment is the management and false hope given - my trust we’re ready to start to give to staff . It’s actually made my mental health really poor. I just wish we hadn’t been told a date, I could have have just plodded on.

@Hill1991 this is pretty thorough longitudinal research - as well as the average care home stay being under 3 years (as per the government numbers above), pre-covid, 45% of people die in their first year in a care home.

Yes we need to protect people in care homes, and care home workers (who could, if NHS workers got early vaccination, be treated the same way, minimising their risk and also transmission in homes).

This is not about who has it harder. What is happening is trying to minimise number of covid deaths because that looks better for the UK, while completely ignoring years of life saved, as we would for any other treatment.