So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

[Gigheimer]

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

I'm not an anti vaxxer, but I do think it's quite concerning the way some people are quick to support others having their liberties curtailed for exercising their right to refrain from a vaccine that's been developed at speed with no long term studies.

As it stands people have bodily autonomy and we don't prevent people from going to work if they haven't had an MMR booster, we don't stop people getting the train if they decline the flu vaccine, so I'm wary of trying to give the covid vaccine a higher status.

I'm also concerned that the level of insults directed at anyone who isn't jumping enthusiastically to the vaccine will push people who have reasonable reservations towards more disturbing anti vax and conspiracy theorist groups.

Great to question things but why not listen when those questions are answered, or at least be open to learning more. It appears a lot of people have their mind set, arms folded, refusing the vaccine.

I find it worrying how people will follow a herd on social media bleating about how "it's rushed, not for me thanks, I'll take my chances with the virus" as if theirs is a superior more educated decision.

Most educated HCPs are thankfully willing to be vaccinated. Not because they're scared of any civil liberties being removed, not because they're brain washed to conform but just as a socially responsible informed decision.

Christ a lot of the educated hcps where I work didn't even bother getting a flu jab so I wouldn't count on them getting this unless forced.

@LolaSmiles

Exactly! and no one can answer why it will be ok for someone to need some kind of covid passport to attend sports and music venue...but the covid vaccinated people who attend could go along and pass on influenza to a vulnerable person there who could die and that seems to be ok.

I am also so curious to see how influenza season is handled going forward when this pandemic is over. At my local doctors prior to the pandemic Monday mornings is the time that the elderly get their blood taken. They can be taken any day but Monday is the only day that someone from the doctors surgery will bring the samples to hospital, if you get bloods taken any other day you have to go yourself....so the system encouraged all the vulnerable to congregate together on the same morning in a small place with no PPE or social distancing at all. I'm not sure what way it is being handled now but I am so curious to see if it reverts back to the old way once the covid pandemic is over.

@SmileyClare
Many questions are not being answered though!

I suppose "educated HCP" is a rather loose term. It could mean anything really from consultant to a care home worker with 1 gcse.

Also flu season is managed with vaccination programs for all elderly and vulnerable. That's why the elderly aren't asked to follow further restrictions such as masks or distancing.

As it stands people have bodily autonomy and we don't prevent people from going to work if they haven't had an MMR booster, we don't stop people getting the train if they decline the flu vaccine, so I'm wary of trying to give the covid vaccine a higher status

Yep, this so much, thanks for putting more eloquently what I am feeling about this, @LolaSmiles

I'm interested to see how blood testing will be in the future.
Before CV, turn up to one of the few clinics (fucked when you work)

Now, make an appointment, show up and out within 5 minutes. And unlike the clinics, Saturdays and after. 4pm appointments became available.

No delays getting the results.

@Gigheimer

The UK vaccine minister Haircuts

Panama that’s not freedom.

You're taking absolute shit. It's the same reason there are laws in place against not being allowed to smoke inside, to enter certain places whilst intoxicated, why carrying a knife is an offence. Why should this be any different?

I think the vaccination passport is fair enough, I'm on board with it. I think there's a lot of pandering and tiptoeing here. In all honesty I've always thought there should be some sort of restrictions on school / childcare without a good reason not to vaccinate your kids. It's shocking that we still have children dying of measles in this country.

One minute it looked similar to previous corona viruses, then it didn't, but then it did again and they had the building blocks for the vaccine as it was already in the early stages of being developed.

After you have all been vaccinated

fullfact.org/online/vaccine-ai-mhra-adverse/?utm_source=content_page&utm_medium=related_content

Do people seriously think they won't be able to go to any place of work or get on a train without a vaccination certificate? Come on, restrictions will apply to international travel, possibly NHS staff and care home staff in daily contact with the very elderly and vulnerable will be strongly advised to get vaccinated.

All NHS staff are asked to have an annual flu jab, and provide evidence of MMR, BCG (in some areas) and HepB.

It's scaremongering to think we're suddenly heading into some sort of dystopian nightmare. Get a grip.

If you can't attend some large social gatherings or travel internationally then it's hardly taking your freedom.

carrying a knife is an offence
An excellent point. Carrying a dangerous virus that can kill vulnerable people is also an offence.

@marsiettina

I’m not liking where this so called non compulsory (but compulsory) vaccine is heading. If I cannot go or do anything unless I have the vaccine, then it’s compulsory.

If the vaccine was a one time only deal then maybe I would think about having it, but every year, like the flu jab is not very appealing.
It cannot be compared to small pox etc as those vaccines were tested over a number of years and then administered. I’m not happy with how fast everything can go through to get the Covid vaccine out.

Do you seriously think scientists, who's life work is to develop vaccines, and who know FULL WELL the damage of ANYTHING going wrong with this vaccine would be an unbelievable blow to the reputation of vaccination as a whole, would put billions of people at risk if they had any concerns whatsoever? When you have tens of people who are the best in their field, agreeing on the best way forward, you should probably listen to them. Unless you're a world leading virologist and epidemiologist?

If you want to go down this route, maybe you should look into people who have been charged with criminal offences when infecting people with HIV by having unprotected sex whilst knowing they are HIV positive.

How would you feel about non-vaccination, being allowed to continue your life as you like, then if you infect a person with Covid who then goes on to die, then you can be charged with man slaughter?

It cannot be compared to small pox etc as those vaccines were tested over a number of years and then administered.

This part made me laugh.

History of Smallpox

The basis for vaccination began in 1796 when an English doctor named Edward Jenner observed that milkmaids who had gotten cowpox did not show any symptoms of smallpox after variolation. The first experiment to test this theory involved milkmaid Sarah Nelmes and James Phipps, the 9 year-old son of Jenner’s gardener. Dr. Jenner took material from a cowpox sore on Nelmes’ hand and inoculated it into Phipps’ arm. Months later, Jenner exposed Phipps a number of times to variola virus, but Phipps never developed smallpox. More experiments followed, and, in 1801, Jenner published his treatise “On the Origin of the Vaccine Inoculation,” in which he summarized his discoveries and expressed hope that “the annihilation of the smallpox, the most dreadful scourge of the human species, must be the final result of this practice.”

Vaccination became widely accepted and gradually replaced the practice of variolation. At some point in the 1800s (the precise time remains unclear), the virus used to make the smallpox vaccine changed from cowpox to vaccinia virus.

"We elected the government to make decisions for the good of the many And now people are throwing their toys out of the pram because the good of the many isn’t good for them individually."

What government makes decisions for the good of the many?

I wouldn't call questioning the government over lockdown or any other disastrous policy (like going to war in the middle east) is a case of throwing toys out of a pram.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Is a compulsory vaccine good for the many though? Because it's only really the few who need protecting, not the many.

Yes ofc because there is always a chance that any one of the 'healthy many' can become one of the 'vulnerable few'.

Protecting the vulnerable is in everyone's best interests, even if you're not altruistic, it's insurance.

There is a sizeable number if medics against being forced into having this vaccine by the way. My sister works on a large hospital - she reckons it’s around 20 per cent

63% hcp's said yes when asked if they would have the CV vaccine.

www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/nursing-times-survey-reveals-views-on-flu-and-covid-19-vaccines-03-11-2020/?utm_source=Bibblio&utm_medium=Recommendation&utm_campaign=Recommended_Articles

It's perfectly legitimate to have concerns. This bullying and bashing is nasty and makes me think we're heading for another car crash culture war over this

Tribal war

If the idea of a vaccine os to help return society to normality, then it makes sense that those willing to be vaccinated should return to normal life once vaccinated. You are free to choose not to be vaccinated but if that means you remain in some form of restricted normality then so be it.

Unless you think everyone else should get vaccinated so that you can return to normality? But no one is that self centred surely?

@P999

It's perfectly legitimate to have concerns. This bullying and bashing is nasty and makes me think we're heading for another car crash culture war over this

It is, but the place to get information to address concerns isn’t social media, and the thread title is inaccurate, even a dog whistle.

SmileyClare
There's people who are openly in favour of trying to erode other people's civil liberties for making different health decisions. The thing is that many of those people who are saying they're more than happy to see those abstaining from a covid vaccine prevented from public transport or going into hospitality etc are highly unlikely to hold views saying that daily life should be limited for not being up to date with MMR, or people shouldn't be allowed to travel if they don't get the flu vaccine. There's a certain amount of covid hysteria in places which means instead of opening sensible dialogue and considering that entirely reasonable people might have reservations about a newly developed medical product, some people go straight for claims of anti-vaxxer and supporting severely limiting people's ability to live freely.

I think the government has more sense than to prevent people going about day to day life if they choose not to be vaccinated in the next few months.