So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

[Gigheimer]

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

@LolaSmiles what civil liberties are being eroded?

At the moment it's all conjecture.

And if I didn't want to get a national vaccine I wouldn't be wringing my hands about being labelled an anti-vaxxer. I'd like to think I'd have the good sense to own my decision and live with the consequences.

I think there's a lot of entitled people on this thread and real issue is they are not used to just being told no.

@SmileyClare

Do people seriously think they won't be able to go to any place of work or get on a train without a vaccination certificate? Come on, restrictions will apply to international travel, possibly NHS staff and care home staff in daily contact with the very elderly and vulnerable will be strongly advised to get vaccinated.

All NHS staff are asked to have an annual flu jab, and provide evidence of MMR, BCG (in some areas) and HepB.

It's scaremongering to think we're suddenly heading into some sort of dystopian nightmare. Get a grip.

If you can't attend some large social gatherings or travel internationally then it's hardly taking your freedom.

Did you honestly think this time last year that it would be illegal to see your parents in your house and the vast majority would be fine to go along with that. Did you that people would have complied with being at home and schools and everything shut? Honestly, think back to this time last year. What this has taught me is that anything is possible, things that seems unlikely or unimaginable now, can be very real in the future. So frightening. This year has fundamentally changed my view of the world forever

All our daily lives are severely limited at the moment. Thankfully a vaccination programme will allow our civil liberties to return. Of course if we all refused the vaccine for another 2 years we'd be up shit creek with restrictions causing complete economic collapse and not enough NHS funding for it to survive. Vaccination is a chance for most people's freedom to return. That's my view.

The result of widespread vaccine refusal would be catastrophic to civil liberties.

@smileyclare We’re restricted to keep pressure off the nhs. Vaccinating the vulnerable people who are more likely to be hospitalised will reduce that strain and the restrictions will not longer be necessary.

And if I didn't want to get a national vaccine I wouldn't be wringing my hands about being labelled an anti-vaxxer. I'd like to think I'd have the good sense to own my decision and live with the consequences.

One important issue with labelling people as anti-vaxxers is that in a world were vaccination is deemed important it is important to approach a problem (and anti-vaxxers are obviously deemed as a problem) with the facts and tools that might help to either change some of their minds or prevent more people from being strict anti-vaxxers who refuse all vaccinations.

Some of us are just questioning things. We have previously accepted vaccinations and vaccinated our children. If this many people who have already gone along with vaccinations now have fears and concerns then perhaps they should be dealt with it a mature way to raise confidence in the vaccines and the risks involved and how the governments are handling things. That is something that will help to ensure that a certain percentage of the people who are cautious and fearful people do actually get the vaccine in future.

"what civil liberties are being eroded?"

Do you really need to ask this?

One important issue with labelling people as anti-vaxxers is that in a world were vaccination is deemed important it is important to approach a problem (and anti-vaxxers are obviously deemed as a problem) with the facts and tools that might help to either change some of their minds or prevent more people from being strict anti-vaxxers who refuse all vaccinations.

Some of us are just questioning things. We have previously accepted vaccinations and vaccinated our children. If this many people who have already gone along with vaccinations now have fears and concerns then perhaps they should be dealt with it a mature way to raise confidence in the vaccines and the risks involved and how the governments are handling things. That is something that will help to ensure that a certain percentage of the people who are cautious and fearful people do actually get the vaccine in future

Spot on.

People expressing reservations and not wanting to be scrambling to the front of the queue, or wanting to see a bit more about long term health consequences are entirely reasonable things to do. It's absolutely wrong that these people are being labelled anti vaxxers and have to deal with at best smug dismissive comments, at worse outright venom.

It's almost like people haven't realised that the issue isn't black and white, and that one easy way to push people with reasonable doubts further into antivax conspiracy territory is to bang on at them and dismiss perfectly reasonable debate.

The covid vaccine discussion is reminding me of brexit discussions where any reasonable discussion about immigration was met with 'but you are racist... you're just bigoted'. All it did was push people with valid concerns further towards brexit and the narrative pushed by Farrage. Most people who voted brexit wont have been racist, but many of them were probably fed up with being told their concerns were stupid. A similar approach happens with this vaccine.

The vaccine hasn’t been tested on children though. Will families be barred from all public places indefinitely? No family holidays (sorry TUI). What about teenagers going to big concerts at, say the O2?

Having the vaccine will be a "free choice" in the same sense that obeying the orders of someone holding a gun to your head is a "free choice".

The vaccine hasn’t been tested on children though

At least one of them has been. The vaccine won't be approved for use on children until it has been tested.

Will families be barred from all public places indefinitely? No family holidays (sorry TUI). What about teenagers going to big concerts at, say the O2?

No-one is talking about barring people from public places because they haven't been vaccinated. As for holidays and concerts, that is up to the businesses concerned.

@LolaSmiles

SmileyClare There's people who are openly in favour of trying to erode other people's civil liberties for making different health decisions. The thing is that many of those people who are saying they're more than happy to see those abstaining from a covid vaccine prevented from public transport or going into hospitality etc are highly unlikely to hold views saying that daily life should be limited for not being up to date with MMR, or people shouldn't be allowed to travel if they don't get the flu vaccine. There's a certain amount of covid hysteria in places which means instead of opening sensible dialogue and considering that entirely reasonable people might have reservations about a newly developed medical product, some people go straight for claims of anti-vaxxer and supporting severely limiting people's ability to live freely.

I think the government has more sense than to prevent people going about day to day life if they choose not to be vaccinated in the next few months.

That's irrelevant because measles isn't currently causing a pandemic. If measles were are prevalent in society as Covid currently is, then the government would probably be taking similar measures as that is even more contagious than Covid.

[quote bumbleymummy]@smileyclare We’re restricted to keep pressure off the nhs. Vaccinating the vulnerable people who are more likely to be hospitalised will reduce that strain and the restrictions will not longer be necessary.[/quote]
The problem is the more younger people say they don’t want the vaccine because it’s not safe etc the more the vulnerable start to worry about the vaccine. Before you know it half of them are saying they don’t want it and the pressure on the nhs isn’t eased and restrictions continue. We will have to wait and see what uptake is like but social media discussion of vaccines isn’t helping us persuade the people who need vaccinating to get vaccinated.

I'm guessing there will be a big song and dance about not being allowed into places etc if you don't have the vaccine ... I'm also guessing this is BS ...perhaps to hustle people into getting vaccinated through fear ?

but social media discussion of vaccines isn’t helping us persuade the people who need vaccinating to get vaccinated

I personally think the OTT reactions don't help. People are entitled to a sensible discussion of the pros and cons of this new vaccine, not people hysterically screaming at others and calling them anti-vaxxers.

[quote SkedaddIe]@LolaSmiles what civil liberties are being eroded?

At the moment it's all conjecture.

And if I didn't want to get a national vaccine I wouldn't be wringing my hands about being labelled an anti-vaxxer. I'd like to think I'd have the good sense to own my decision and live with the consequences.

I think there's a lot of entitled people on this thread and real issue is they are not used to just being told no. [/quote]
Well, we could start with the right to protest (peacefully), and work backwards...

user1481840227

I totally agree. I'm fed up with puerile insults instead of reasoned arguments. We are all adults and have to weigh up the pros and cons of our decisions every day. But when it comes to vaccines we are infantalised and denied autonomy.

If you want to go down this route, maybe you should look into people who have been charged with criminal offences when infecting people with HIV by having unprotected sex whilst knowing they are HIV positive.

How is this in any way the same thing? Those charges were brought as they knowingly infected others. Ok so if you have tested positive and go and cough in a granny with COPDs face, you absolutely should go to jail. But seriously?

What pointless arguing!
There isn't enough vaccine to go around for those who want it. As if it's going to be mandatory. There is a long queue of people happy to push in front of an anti vaxxer.

As for holidays and concert venues. You can't go on holiday without a passport. You can't go to many concerts, nowadays, without photo ID. Nor can you go to either without money.

You are free to refuse a vaccine. Just as private companies - airlines, concert venues, etc, are free to refuse you entry

Freedom works both ways.

I personally think the OTT reactions don't help. People are entitled to a sensible discussion of the pros and cons of this new vaccine, not people hysterically screaming at others and calling them anti-vaxxers.*

^^ this, it’s like everything else in life now. Want to discuss trans issues? You’re a terf. Want to debate BLM? You’re a racist.

This totally binary adulation of the mainstream seriously concerns me. Mainly because it is driving people who want to discuss, or get attacked in the opposite direction. It is silencing people and driving them to quiet, underground rage and then they find the seedy fuckers there who will give them more and more extreme opinions.

We carry on and it’s going to be fascism or jackboots and that terrifies the shit out of me.

Anti vaxxers are very useful. What with the enormous global demand. Don't want it? Fantastic! Get out of the queue and somebody else can take your place.

Sorry to disappoint OP. The jackboots and facism is already here. Have a look through all the posts from the last 9 months writing off the lives of the elderly and disabled aka The Vulnerable aka The Others. That's the MO of far right fascists. Viewing vulnerable people as expendable. Sickening isn't it.

Nadhim Zahawi, the new vaccines minister, has a degree in chemical engineering and a professional background in online market research (he co-founded YouGov).

In 2011 he wrote a book with Hat Mancock about human behaviour in the financial crash. I haven't read it but from the blurb it's about the behaviour of the bankers and investors and not the behaviour of the millions of ordinary people left scrabbling around trying to survive in the wake of the bankers' casual, profligate mistakes. These men don't give a shit about anyone except themselves and their rich mates.

There is nothing in Nadhim Zahawi's history or credentials to suggest that he has the slightest clue about public health. Same goes for Dido Harding. Why isn't the government hiring people with the relevant expertise and experience for these posts? Why are all these posts going to Boris's wealthy and completely unqualified business mates?

Floating ideas around compulsory vaccines and immunity passports is incredibly irresponsible and harmful and actively gets in the way of public health. You can't do public health while actively alienating the public.

[quote bumbleymummy]@smileyclare We’re restricted to keep pressure off the nhs. Vaccinating the vulnerable people who are more likely to be hospitalised will reduce that strain and the restrictions will not longer be necessary.[/quote]
Right so we go from shield (lock up) the vulnerable while the rest of us keep our freedom, to jab the vulnerable with a vaccine that you object to because you don’t believe it’s been proven safe, and the rest of us keep our freedom? Nice. Very civic minded.

Anyway it isn’t 100% effective so ‘the vulnerable’ still won’t be safe. Jog on.

Sorry not RTFT but I am choosing to probably not have the vaccine because it could possibly make my involuntary neurological movement disorder worse... Is that a valid reason enough not to?

Are you kidding? We’ve locked down the country to different degrees several times now to help protect the vulnerable and stop the nhs from being overwhelmed. That’s hardly treating them as expendable