Government denial over schools issues will cause deaths this Christmas

[noblegiraffe]

I just can't get my head around how utterly crazy the government Christmas policy is.

Secondary school kids are the most infected subset of the population with it now estimated that more than 1 in 50 of them are positive. As they are children, most of them will never be tested as they either are asymptomatic, or will display different symptoms to the main three that are required to trigger a test (councils are overruling this in some parts of England and asking parents to use a more sensible list of symptoms).

Schools mostly break up on 18th December, 5 days before the Christmas relaxation period begins and people start taking advantage of this to mix with other households indoors, in poorly ventilated small rooms, which as scientists warn, is a terrible idea. twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1331931594400149506?s=21

Closing schools a week earlier (or moving online) would give 2 weeks out of school before Christmas day, which would reduce the infection rate in school children significantly (we saw a dip in the infection rate just in one week over half term) and make it safer for them to mix with other households, particularly if people took advantage of those two weeks to significantly reduce their contacts and other risks.

Some schools took it upon themselves to protect their own communities by changing the term dates to close a week earlier. The DfE has overruled this and forced them to stay open.
schoolsweek.co.uk/overruled-dfes-sweeping-coronavirus-powers-force-trust-into-early-christmas-holiday-u-turn/

Because of the tier system, if families don't get together at Christmas during the relaxation period, when their children pose a much higher risk, they will not be able to see their families properly for Christmas at all. Essentially Christmas is being funnelled into a time period which is insanely risky due to it coming shortly after children mixing freely in unsafe schools with significant numbers of undiscovered infections.

I know the DfE have been reading this board. I understand why you want schools open, but lying to people about the risks as you have is dangerous and immoral. Transparency is needed so that people can make their own informed risk assessments, not propaganda about 'safe schools' and 'saving Christmas'.

"Assuming people aren’t deliberately breathing on the elderly, it is, angelina"
You think that Covid is only spread when people have been breathed on at very close quarters? And deliberately?

We are people, we can catch the disease without ever seeing a grandchild

I thought it was only school kids that spread the disease?

Thats the general gist we get from these threads!

Which is why I am shocked that number of cases are dropping with schools still being open.

Maybe everyone stay at home and postponing Christmas meet ups would be the easy answer.

Of course grandparents aren’t some exotic breed but in the context of discussing covid, it’s reasonable to assume we aren’t talking about otherwise-healthy 55 year olds.

If someone happens to be a grandparent, and they are living a normal life - including work - then realistically the chances of catching it could come from anywhere. It is morally wrong to demand schools are closed while buses, trains, offices, stores, remain open. That is a disproportionate response.

If the question is about a grandparent who is very elderly and/or vulnerable, which is reasonable to assume given we are talking about deaths, then again, if they are living a normal life as you say, it is wrong for this normal life to continue bar schools being open. How can that be justified?

If they are not living a ‘normal’ life - they are keeping indoors as much as possible - then where Christmas is concerned, this is a decision only they can and should make.

I don't think it is that simple Covidnomore, I think it was Chris Whitty who explained that we can't have it all, if we want one thing we may have to give up another. The argument is really that some people aren't willing to give up anything.

@OverTheRainbowLiesOz So why did the covid cases dip during half term? Can you point on the dip because I can't see it happened during half term.

I was referring to the graph posted earlier by noble.

@ancientgran

That would be my preference.

And the current situation in schools needs to be addressed

"It is not up to schools to close for fear for the elderly - it is up to families to make those decisions themselves"
OK, well, playing devil's advocate here, you could extend that argument by saying that, assuming effective and appropriate online work is provided, it's not up to schools to remain open because families need childcare. Families need to make provision for that themselves.

However it will only work if the parents keep the children at home and not let them out and about as would defeat the point

Well after a trip to Birmingham on a weekday morning I can assume that many children are not isolating when they have been instructed too.

And actually i have an issue with essentially locking my kids up so other families can have Xmas together. We can't because not everyone can work at home.

And how many people have things booked before Xmas. We have 3 things booked in the few days beforehand.

"I thought it was only school kids that spread the disease?"

"That's the general gist we get from these threads!"

Only if you have misunderstood people's posts.

@OverTheRainbowLiesOz I can give you an idea why the rates went like that in Torbay despite the schools being closed. The area was flooded with people from all over the country mixing. It may be coming to a town near you in January thanks to Johnson saving Christmas.

@CallmeAngelina

"It is not up to schools to close for fear for the elderly - it is up to families to make those decisions themselves" OK, well, playing devil's advocate here, you could extend that argument by saying that, assuming effective and appropriate online work is provided, it's not up to schools to remain open because families need childcare. Families need to make provision for that themselves.

It’s not only for childcare.

Maybe everyone stay at home and postponing Christmas meet ups would be the easy answer.

Yep. This is what we are doing. Well not quite staying at home, but not socialising and mixing households.

No, angelina That’s not it.

But people are not purposefully seeking the elderly out to try to infect them, either. We all know that if I am working in a school then attend a party, then each of the people attending that party go to work, then each of the people at work ... method of infection. Cutting that as far as is sensible is wise, so I might not go to a party on that basis.

But there is a world of difference between not attending a party, and not attending school, or a necessary hospital appointment, or buying food.

@Covidnomore

Maybe everyone stay at home and postponing Christmas meet ups would be the easy answer.

Yep. This is what we are doing. Well not quite staying at home, but not socialising and mixing households.

I say yep to this too

Looks like people will need to factor in long periods of isolation for their children through January and February. Plus very full hospitals.

Seems to be the popular choice.

I don't think it is that simple Covidnomore, I think it was Chris Whitty who explained that we can't have it all, if we want one thing we may have to give up another. The argument is really that some people aren't willing to give up anything.

Agree. We are giving up the family Xmas and prioritising schools. We couldn't ensure the virus wasn't in the home anyway as we can't lock ourselves away due to DH work.

@Covidnomore

Well after a trip to Birmingham on a weekday morning I can assume that many children are not isolating when they have been instructed too.

Yes, I’ve noticed that. I don’t work Fridays so often take my boys to the playground during school hours.
It’s often full of school aged kids who clearly should be at home.

@OverTheRainbowLiesOz

Looks like people will need to factor in long periods of isolation for their children through January and February. Plus very full hospitals.

Seems to be the popular choice.

Are you meeting up at Christmas?

It’s this that will impact January.

So if it is "saving Christmas" or keeping schools open we need to let Johnson know that keeping schools open is the safest choice and lets celebrate Easter when things will hopefully be safer.

No. I'm staying home.

But many won't. And government policy is to allow mixing at the moment.

@ancientgran

So if it is "saving Christmas" or keeping schools open we need to let Johnson know that keeping schools open is the safest choice and lets celebrate Easter when things will hopefully be safer.

Good idea

@Covidnomore Agree. We are giving up the family Xmas and prioritising schools. We couldn't ensure the virus wasn't in the home anyway as we can't lock ourselves away due to DH work. That seems sensible but unfortunately no all the families in the school will do the same and if they bring covid into school your children may be affected anyway.

It isn't just grannies (my husband is getting cross about saving grannies as he thinks no one cares about granddads.)

I don’t think it is saving Christmas vs keeping schools open.

The schools are open: people may choose to have a difference Christmas on that basis, or they may not.

Where I think I differ in my opinion to some on this thread is that I don’t feel it is the place of the government, or headteachers for that matter, to make that decision on behalf of families.

Given the decisions the govt have been making I'm not sure why this one is the one that they can't decide on.