Month long lockdown to 'pay' for 5 days over Christmas

[NotAKaren]

PHE have confirmed Sage advice that for every one day of relaxation over Christmas would require 5 days of restrictions afterwards. So for 5 days relaxation, which is rumoured to be what the government have in mind, would mean 25 days of restrictions. Is it really worth it?

Friendsoftheearth My parents are insistent that we come as is my sister. We will not be seeing my in laws as my FIL has cancer so we are staying well away. My parents visit the supermarket every week, and see my sister and her family once a week (now allowed in Wales). We basically isolate as we work from home and shop online and I haven’t seen friends since February. Our children will finish school a week before we visit and will see no one else after that. We missed a previous Christmas due to an accident and it was miserable for all. We will be with family for Christmas because that is what Christmas is about and that is what my family want. I really couldn’t give a toss how selfish internet strangers think we are - we’ve followed the rules all along - we will be together for Christmas.

@friendsoftheearth - the government policy has never been to stamp out covid, only to spread out the cases to the level the NHS can cope with.

Realistically, if you live in a high risk area, the best you can hope for is to delay catching it for a few weeks, not stop yourself from ever catching it.

In that case, the person with stage 4 cancer has to think, they are unlikely to survive catching covid, they are unlikely to avoid catching covid. Do they want to spend their last few months lonely for the sake or a few extra weeks, or spend them surrounded by loved ones? What is an extra month alone worth?

We need to be realistic about this. Extending life at all costs has always been seen as a poor choice medically. The mental health of those at the end of their life is as important to protect as physical pain levels.

If they are prepared to say the risk is worth the reward, its bloody terrible to tell those family members going g along with it that the death is their fault.

If these sacrifices are made to enable a few days of Christmas celebrations how will that come across to all those who weren’t able to properly celebrate Diwali, Jewish new year in Sept, etc? Prioritising Christmas in this way risks alienating a lot of people & communities.

Yes I know the uk is nominally a ‘Christian country’ but just hypothetically, as a non-Christian if I saw the government prioritise things in this way I’d be a lot less inclined to follow any future restrictions on gatherings, weddings etc.

Lost in a cloud had this nailed within the first few posts.

DH has twice weekly catch ups with PHE (local and HO) due to his job (it was twice daily throughout sept/Oct). On the call today they were told that we will be in tier 3 throughout Jan regardless. Gov will play it as ‘the public chose to have xmas’ they don’t get landed with anymore blame. I don’t know at what point this additional 25 days is going to be added on?

Also, isn't January normally shit? The weather is bad, everyone is on a diet, and noone goes out because everyone is skint after the Christmas credit card bill comes in.

January lockdown effectively happens naturally.

Lets have a fabulous Christmas and then lockdown when it's all a bit crap anyway.

@NotAKaren

PHE have confirmed Sage advice that for every one day of relaxation over Christmas would require 5 days of restrictions afterwards. So for 5 days relaxation, which is rumoured to be what the government have in mind, would mean 25 days of restrictions. Is it really worth it?

Considering in Leicester and parts of Birmingham / Bradford Diwali and / or Eid are more relevant to the local economy than Christmas it’s highly unfair. Either we’re all in this together or we’re not but the one thing I guarantee is if they relax the Lockdown for Christmas, people aren’t going to take any rules seriously for the Hindu Holi / spring festivals or Eid next year.

HerculesMuligan Christmas is a national holiday for all in the UK and not a religious event for the majority. Roughly 2% of people in the UK celebrate Diwali. Over 90% celebrate Christmas.

@HerculesMuligan

If these sacrifices are made to enable a few days of Christmas celebrations how will that come across to all those who weren’t able to properly celebrate Diwali, Jewish new year in Sept, etc? Prioritising Christmas in this way risks alienating a lot of people & communities.

Yes I know the uk is nominally a ‘Christian country’ but just hypothetically, as a non-Christian if I saw the government prioritise things in this way I’d be a lot less inclined to follow any future restrictions on gatherings, weddings etc.

So far the only thing that has guarded against this is that all religions have been treated equally. The second Christmas gets prioritised there will be uproar and it won’t just be amongst religious groups - A lot of business people (eg jewellers/gift makers / textiles companies) whose livlihoods depend on non-Christian festivals are already livid.

knicker It is up to you, and your parents. It is not for anyone to say you can't or shouldn't be doing it. It is a matter for our own conscience. Christmas comes every year, I hope my family will be here for the next 10 years, if I am lucky longer - so one quiet and safe christmas is worth it for many of us. The risks are too high, my parents do not think they will survive covid if they get it, so they are being sensible and waiting for the vaccine (coming any day now, but unlikely to be before christmas day) and we will celebrate when it is safe to do so. I will be giving my mother the hug of her life!

MargosKaftan I think you are overlooking the fact that people will die needlessly, because the vaccine is almost here. What a dreadful outcome for those people, when they could have lived.

It is not about you and I catching it, of course we are likely to be fine, it is about the thousands that could have survived if they had held out for a few more months and had a vaccine.
I am not suggesting we suspend all life in fear of the virus, but I think we should be moving heaven and earth saving as many lives as possible this christmas whilst we wait for the vaccine to be rolled out.

People can do whatever they want, but there will be a price to pay for many.

Lets face it, we are going to have another lockdown. If we have a family Christmas, it'll happen in January. If we don't have a nice Christmas, we might get to delay until February to have the lockdown.

If we have Christmas, we might need 5-6 weeks of lockdown, or we could have no Christmas and only need 2-3 weeks in February, taking in the half term.

There is no option that involves there being no lockdown between now and March.

We can have fun then lockdown or misery then lockdown. Either way, we need at least one more before the vaccines are fully rolled out.

I'll take fun then Jan over misery then Feb thanks.

Lets have a fabulous Christmas and then lockdown when it's all a bit crap anyway

Are you forgetting the bit where people, many thousands of people get to die on a covid ward after enjoying a 'fabulous' christmas?
That for them, this really WILL be their last christmas thanks to posts like yours. Perhaps they would have enjoyed another twenty more years of life and christmases and dancing, but now won't because of this mentality. I am wondering if you are for real marg

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54998436

Coronavirus: Christmas socialising poses 'substantial risks' - scientist

@IHateCoronavirus

Bloody hell the governments stupidity is the gift that keeps giving at the moment.

Absolutely. It's bonkers and will kill many businesses stone dead.

I would say yes it’s worth it. Both my DC are adults with their own lives and I would like to see them and their families at Christmas. I’m not fussed about pubs and restaurants, just a couple of households being able to mix. I honestly think we will be in some form of lockdown in January anyway so it will make no difference. And I say this as someone who works in hospitality and is currently on flexible furlough.

I can understand why people with young children are happy to stay in lockdown though as my views might be different if I were in that situation. DH and me alone for Christmas however, does not sound good, and as my granddaughter is 2 this Christmas, it’s one I really don’t want to miss.

I also think we need to consider what the mental health of the nation is going to look like in January, the bleakest time of the year with suicide rates absolutely rocketing, and you want us all to have another strict lockdown because people wanted a 'fabulous' five day christmas?

What will it do the economy? And the job losses. What will it do to those already struggling with dreadful MH and this will tip them over the edge?
What will happen to the children when schools have to be closed again for months? What about all the deaths and long covid, and organ failure - all because some people wanted to party?!

I think it is phenomenally selfish and self centred to be honest.

Totally ignoring the most enormous downsides and deciding to fuck it we don't care its christmas attitude. It is so distressing to know many of those jolly grannies will end up in ICU and dead weeks later. I don't know how anyone (beyond those already dying) can even consider this option. I am amazed it is finding any support whatsoever.

No! It's so unfair towards people who don't celebrate Christmas! They have to go into lockdown so that the rest of us can have our Christmas?! But sod Eid, Diwali etc. How awful!

@PyjamaLlamas exactly! “We’re all in this together” until, well, we’re not.

Aren't we projected to have 100,000 extra deaths compared to the five year average by December 31st?

Even though most causes of death such as road accidents, accidents at work, still births, deaths in childbirth, etc are down, and the suicide rate is much the same as any other year.

There's no reason why the people who die wouldn't be my dad or your mum or our partners or grandparents or us ourselves is there?

I do struggle to understand why people are happy to risk their loved ones like that.

Is it just denialism of the risk and magical thinking?

@MargosKaftan

Lets face it, we are going to have another lockdown. If we have a family Christmas, it'll happen in January. If we don't have a nice Christmas, we might get to delay until February to have the lockdown.

If we have Christmas, we might need 5-6 weeks of lockdown, or we could have no Christmas and only need 2-3 weeks in February, taking in the half term.

There is no option that involves there being no lockdown between now and March.

We can have fun then lockdown or misery then lockdown. Either way, we need at least one more before the vaccines are fully rolled out.

I'll take fun then Jan over misery then Feb thanks.

For YOU a big family Christmas might fun and not having a big family Christmas might be miserable and not nice and like "no Christmas", but please don't presume to talk everyone. I don't have a big family to have a magical fun Christmas with. My Christmases are usually a bit crap, so I will be happy to not travel hundreds miles to family.

Instead I will spend the day in my bubble with my DP, no relaxation of restrictions required. I will have a fun Christmas, not a miserable one as you seem to be assuming. I appreciate we might need another lockdown regardless of what happens at Christmas, but for the sake of my and others' mental health, the hospitality and other businesses, and the economy in general I would much much prefer a 2‐3 week lockdown to a 5-6 week one.

I can't find any information about 2020 suicide figures in the UK but i see that they've doubled in London compared to 2019 - www.standard.co.uk/news/london/paramedic-callouts-suicides-attempted-london-double-year-a4573283.html

Very worrying.

@MargosKaftan

Also, isn't January normally shit? The weather is bad, everyone is on a diet, and noone goes out because everyone is skint after the Christmas credit card bill comes in.

January lockdown effectively happens naturally.

Lets have a fabulous Christmas and then lockdown when it's all a bit crap anyway.

January will be even more shit if people's relatives end up seriously ill in hospital or worse. January will be even more shit if another lockdown means businesses go bust and more people loose their jobs. People talk about the effect on mental health but cannot think of anything more traumatic and impacting on mental health than these situations.

Personally, yes. My children need some normality over Christmas as their mental health and my own is suffering. One child lives with me, the other two with the other parent in a different part of the country and due to all of these restrictions and isolating, we haven't seen each other in person over the nine months. The kids are all under 15, struggling with missing their siblings and other parent as well as other family members, exam stress and all the uncertainty in the world right now as well as dealing with the norms of puberty and peer pressure. If we were able to see each other and support each other, I think we would all cope a lot better and be less likely to break the rules. We haven't broken any so far but it is getting to the point that I am sick with worry that the anxiety and depression may take over in my teens to the extent it will be too late and I will not let that happen, rules or no rules.

@southeastdweller

I can't find any information about 2020 suicide figures in the UK but i see that they've doubled in London compared to 2019 - www.standard.co.uk/news/london/paramedic-callouts-suicides-attempted-london-double-year-a4573283.html

Very worrying.

Yes. With over 6,500 deaths there will be a lot of shell-shocked bereaved people around.

I wonder whether any of the suicides or suicide attempts were doctors or nurses?

Quite a few ICU nurses were so traumatised by the first wave they ended up sectioned. I know that there's been doctor and nurse suicide attempts abroad.

A fair proportion of the suicide attempts in London will be amongst the very large homeless population.
Bad housing kills is a very true saying.

So the suicide rates are very worrying, yes, but actually there's a silver lining. For years too few cared.

Now, there seems to be mass public concern about mental health.

Perhaps - at long last - we might see some better resourced mental health services.

No

No. Not at all worth it, they should threaten with fines like they did for Eid and Diwali if they’re worried about non-compliance.