Is a change beginning to happen regarding schools?

[Covidfears]

I’ve been noticing more articles lately in the mainstream press about the difficulties in schools (which will come as no surprise to most people). There’s also been some research which has basically confirmed that schools are driving infections. So, along with it looking like this lockdown has been a waste of time (due to schools being kept open to continue the spread) and people in power calling for Hull schools to be closed do we think that schools will be closing early for Christmas?

Is there any chance that blended learning or rotas will be coming in after the Christmas holidays?

We are a vulnerable family with children in primary school and the risk that sending them every day with no safety measures poses to our family is causing me huge amounts of stress.

I don't think that's the case, it's that people who have zero cases and have had no bubbles having to isolate don't see why their schools should close at the moment. If any cases did rear their head then that would be different.

Unfortunately blocking viral spread doesn't work like that. It might have been true in August, but now if you "haven't got any cases", the likelihood is that they haven't been picked up, not that you actually don't have any, and continuing until you notice the cases means you've left it too late to protect the continuity of service you expect.

I think schools should move to part time/half classes, but the government is 100% resistant so assume they won't.

If you think 'what would stop the virus spreading, cut deaths and benefit the country long term', you can usually be sure the government won't be doing that.

We are on a low risk area atm so no reason to close, I hope assessed on case by case basis but from posts on here, seems to be ++ teachers isolating, waiting for a test, some signed off with stress, which obviously makes staff still working stressed ... vicious circle. I wish they’d give teachers ppe etc so I guess lack of staff will lead to closures, which I think is awful for most children.

I work in the nhs, it’s very stressful but v few people with symptoms/ positive, less than 1% of staff off work. Not everyone wears ppe and social distancing is impossible in many areas. Given hospitals are much more vulnerable, out lower rates are interesting. So many unknowns.
People working vv hard to to try and clear backlog of nhs work before situation worsens. Mental health poor for many but people wouldn’t consider letting their team down so every effort made to work including extra hours.

Lots of people working so hard, grateful for supermarket workers, bins, travel staff etc

There is a difference between seeing children at school and mixing out of school. Firstly at weekends keeping your child from mixing with others means there are 2 days when the virus isn’t transmitted. On weekdays if your child is in secondary they will not have been sat next to the same person all day and the room will have been ventilated, pupils are facing forward, and hopefully not talking that much. Contrast that with having a friend back after school where they might be sitting chatting Face to face in a small bedroom without the Window open and the chance of virus transmission is far higher. Furthermore if the friend visiting is the one with covid there is an immediate risk of it being passed to the whole family at once, whereas if ones own child gets it at school they might have a mild dose and not necessarily pass it round the family.
I have a dd in yr 11 and think that decisions on temporary closures or totals should be taken on a local basis. If schools shut again there will be more inequality with some schools setting work and others doing online lessons.

Mumsnet doesn’t really represent society opinion

Majority of parents want kids in school and gov know that if they close schools people can’t work

Last time gov told people they should work from home so kids cpuld safely stay at home

Now gov have said people can work if they can’t work from home and now businesses have had time to implement covid regulations, most workplaces are still open and they know that

They simply won’t close schools as parents who work would be stuck

It’s wbout balancing it

Schools close then work closes- they won’t allow that - earlier in year was totally different and public opinion isn’t there for it

Donquix - you are completely right. Teachers foresaw this would happen and could have planned for alternative/blended learning properly over the summer if given the chance. Or ventilation systems or extra funding for staff...or many of the options instead of just saying schools can carry on and ignore the problems.

I did wonder if this 4 week lockdown was an experiment to see if they can lower the rate without closing schools. It seems they cant...

I do not despair when or read things like are OK because the teacher is allowed ti wear a mask...

How does their wearing a mask protect them?
We've wear a mask to protect each other so the students need to wear masks to be safer too.

The safety measures are based on the initial hand-wash, surface stuff.
This virus is spread by talking so what safety measures are put in place to stop that transmission in a classroom?

Schools should be doing blended learning. There was a post about a school in Manchester who gave out over 400 lap tops, sorted wi fi for the few students who didn't have it... And pastoral made over 1000 calls, visits to those who needed it over lock down.

His school is closed.. So why can he do it? Close the school, go online... Provide lap tops?

As much as I believe schools are important... The secondary situation needs looking at. Better plan for GCSEs and Alevels. A proper plan for blended learning.

Primaries are safer at the moment (due to less mixing)

I do despair...

I think perhaps treating primary and secondary differently

Firstly, primary children seem to spread the virus much less
Secondly, primary children can not look after themselves at home if the rest of the family works

I think they are hoping, for the sake of the children, that infections can go low enough with schools open. That may well be dependent on the local community

Those who think it's fine to send teenagers home for weeks because they don't need child care - how do you expect parents WFH to work with teenagers around the house all day?
Or go out to work and leave young teens and maybe even some 11 and 12 year olds home alone every day for weeks.

Schools will close. They are in a state for the most part. The most telling thing are comments on Twitter and Tory papers like the DM. People are now asking for schools to close early, die hard fans of schools staying open. There are two reasons for this, one it’s now obvious the driver of infection is schools. People’s businesses are being decimated for no real benefit. (Many children aren’t in school so that’s not a benefit). Then, the huge majority of the workforce don’t have children. They are clearly at their limit of what they will tolerate, with Christmas coming up, when it comes to schools must stay open at all costs. Boris is a populist PM, they will close.

It is completely unfair to say there’s no safety measures. I don’t believe so. Our school is working hard providing as many safety measures as possible. Yes, the school is the place of higher risk, but schools are essential and it’s unfair to deny children socialisation and education when to most of them COVID doesn’t pose any risk. Not saying about their parents need to work. I know a couple of parents who deregistered their children for the time being due to concerns over COVID. It’s their decision and they are home educating now because they can. Other parents I know are also vulnerable but have no choice whatsoever, they have to work, vulnerable or not. They can’t work from home and school closures will be detrimental for them too.

Those DCs getting picked up my other parents is likely because their DPs are working and don't have any other options. Imposing a no household mixing policy whilst simultaneously keeping majority of jobs going, but stripping out most of after school activities and care provision is a recipe for this to happen.

I'm in the keep schools open as much as we can camp, but I totally agree that those who have a different view should be able to take their DCs out of school for now without it being a formal, permanent thing, provided they don't expect a full at home education from teachers still teaching in the classroom.

I also wish we'd done a full lockdown around half term time in Scotland and England and am supportive of schools finishing early for Christmas to give a chance for infections to go down. In fact I'd be reasonably supportive of full on circuit breaker lockdowns say every 6 weeks for 2 weeks - so roughly coinciding with school holidays anyway- as opposed to part time learning.

I'm coming from the scenario where DS 14 has entered first year of studying for Nat 5s ( we are in Scotland). The difference between now and lockdown is like night and day, and he has learnt so much and made so much progress since Autumn term, that it's amazing. I think the teachers are cramming it in on the basis they may be out for a while, which is why I think structured closing down of things including schools on a scheduled basis would be a lot less damaging than random closures through positive cases, or part time learning for the whole year - which is what was proposed in Scotland- which may itself be interrupted by positive cases.

Gino - everyone wants kids in school I think. Its about which way will ensure that it the case. Keeping schools open as they are currently is leading to increasing cases of having to suddenly isolate for 2 weeks at a time at the drop of a hat. More and more outbreaks and schools closing.

If there was a more controlled way with less students in class, distancing etc then the consistency for students and reduced spread would pay off.

My daughters mental health is suffering every day she is in school at the moment so I hope they do. 12 out of 15 of her friends are self isolating. The sooner they accept this time in school is spreading infection the better.

Rookie. That's what I think. Structured planned breaks whether its every 4-6 weeks or part time or however it is would be better than the sudden random having to keep children off. If you have children in different schools its getting increasingly difficult with work for parents to have to have to leave for 2 weeks with no notice.

My problem is that the first lockdown denied my DD her basic right to an education. There were a few worksheets pasted online in haphazard fashion. If it wasn't for me spending a lot of time, money and effort she'd have been doing not much. Meanwhile keyworker children had that right alongside socialisation. My DD had nothing.

I am unsure why school didn't implement zoom/google classroom and no one seems to be able to tell me the answer. I do know DD's class teacher didn't feel comfortable delivering online. Well, I don't feel comfortable with making DD do work that I have cobbled together which wil never be marked. For that, I feel schools have to stay open.

I have to agree those saying well my kids can’t stay at home as I’m working . Many of us have been put in this position overnight now multiple times. I don’t think the school would accept no my son will be in for the next two weeks as I don’t have a plan in place . Much easier to know it’s coming and have time to plan for it .

My kids' schools are in Gtr Mcr and all 3 settings have had huge disruption, all through Sept and Oct, but it seems to be quietening down now at last, so if nationwide school closures come now because cases are increasing in the South I'll be very pissed off. But I know being up North means we have no voice or influence with this government.

Firstly, primary children seem to spread the virus much less

Worth pointing out that correlation is not causation.

The studies saying this were when schools were part shut and distancing was easy. The likely reason is still that primary kids don't move between teachers and don't go out in the evening. Young children shed the most virus of any group.

That said you are dead right. With more staff primaries will stay open all winter, that's much harder in secondary.

I have no idea the reason, although it has been suggested that changed to cells in throat around puberty could actually mean the link is causative

I understand they are still seeing a difference in primary vs secondary age transmission , uk and elsewhere

@PineappleUpsideDownCake

Bananaskin - I must admit although I'm all for tighter covid measures and follow nobelgiraffes school posting....

I don't really get why a child who has been sat next to another child all day and played with them in the playground etc shouldnt then go home together after school. I am higher risk, and generally risk adverse but I can see why parents can't see the logic in this one!

Because you presumably haven't been playing with that child in the playground and sat next to them all day.

The child could catch it from someone in your household, or pass it on to your household. Your own child could already have it and be immune. Even just increasing the degrees of separation slows down the spread.

So, say child A sits next to child B. Child A's mum gets coronavirus, but Child A had an asymptomatic case in the summer. Child A is immune so doesn't infect child B.

Now Child B goes home with child A. Child B catches coronavirus from Child A's mum, and takes it into school. 3 other kids catch it before Child B's case is detected, and so the bubble has to close.

It can also happen in reverse- Child B has an asymptomatic case, comes home with Child A, who hasn't caught it yet, and passes it on to members of Child A's family who then take it into their workplaces or schools.

The only way your logic works is if you can isolate the children completely from your household (including not touching any of the same surfaces).

Grenadines it's nigh on impossible to stop teens mixing in classrooms. They still do group work, crowd together in the same classrooms for lunch. They sing, share ear phone to listen to songs, hug... Do each others hair, look at stuff on each others phones and its impossible to stop them.

@StormyInTheNorth kw didn’t receive any teaching at our school. It was babysitting as we were told. Colouring and a film.... we only used about 6 times - we were keen to protect teachers and others from our high risk jobs.
Online learning provision was poor. Weekly email.