Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Is a change beginning to happen regarding schools?

999 replies

Covidfears · 18/11/2020 00:43

I’ve been noticing more articles lately in the mainstream press about the difficulties in schools (which will come as no surprise to most people). There’s also been some research which has basically confirmed that schools are driving infections. So, along with it looking like this lockdown has been a waste of time (due to schools being kept open to continue the spread) and people in power calling for Hull schools to be closed do we think that schools will be closing early for Christmas?

Is there any chance that blended learning or rotas will be coming in after the Christmas holidays?

We are a vulnerable family with children in primary school and the risk that sending them every day with no safety measures poses to our family is causing me huge amounts of stress.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
MarjorytheTrashHeap · 19/11/2020 11:13

Ours have static seating plans, no touching teachers, no touching each other, staggered drop of, pick up and lunch, segregated playground so no mixing with other bubbles. Extra hand washing. Teachers in masks at drop off and pick up, parents asked to wear masks at drop off and pick up. Office closed except in emergencies or my appointment. Parents dropping at gate and picking or at class door but in an organised socially distances way. Own pencils and stationary. Windows open. School not providing snacks.

My school does all of these. We even have to eat lunch in our cars so there's no crossover at lunch times. Still had a Covid outbreak.

MarjorytheTrashHeap · 19/11/2020 11:13

Funnily enough there is also a localised outbreak in the community. Another local school and nursery have also had to close.

NobleElephantheThird · 19/11/2020 11:19

@sherrystrull - the argument of noblegiraffe are largely about making schools Covid safe and how the government needs to do more. No school is entirely Covid safe and never will be again. The virus is here to stay and we have to learn to live with it. Even my DD's very expensive private school with extra masks, Covid testing machines, social distancing, smaller bubbles, open windows is and cannot be 100 per cent Covid safe. And frankly not all state schools can and ever will be like my DDs school, even if we privatise the NHS and throw all money at education instead. All we can do is wait for the vaccine for those that need it most and try our best to continue to educate our young in person in the best possible way. If there is a large outbreak in a school, of course it will close temporarily - but other kids in other schools should continue to learn in person because that is in their best interests. Some kids will isolate repetitively and some won't. It is not ideal, but we all need to keep going and try our best. Luckily most schools, parents, teachers and heads are doing just that. Far from ideal, but soldering on for as long as possible.

IloveJKRowling · 19/11/2020 11:20

@SansaSnark

BTW, the inspector didn't come into school as it is too unsafe during lockdown

Oh, but it's fine for teachers though EVERY SINGLE DAY. Instead of a one off inspection?

That says it all really. Schools are too unsafe for inspectors but fine for kids and teachers....

canigooutyet · 19/11/2020 11:25

Locally we have several schools closed due to lack of staff. Many are partially open and things are quickly deteriorating. My sons secondary school is following the guidelines, and students are wearing masks in class. Science teacher has been off since March, some since September. Since September, lots sent home. My son went two places, home and school and both within walking distance. He didn't get it from me.

Even IF somehow CV doesn't manage to get in, it will indirectly. Until the schools are more safer and their working conditions improved they will be taking time off. How many of them are parents themselves and have children in a school with CV? Or don't school staff work so they are already home?

How many staff and students will be off once things become unbearable pain wise?

sherrystrull · 19/11/2020 11:26

[quote NobleElephantheThird]@sherrystrull - the argument of noblegiraffe are largely about making schools Covid safe and how the government needs to do more. No school is entirely Covid safe and never will be again. The virus is here to stay and we have to learn to live with it. Even my DD's very expensive private school with extra masks, Covid testing machines, social distancing, smaller bubbles, open windows is and cannot be 100 per cent Covid safe. And frankly not all state schools can and ever will be like my DDs school, even if we privatise the NHS and throw all money at education instead. All we can do is wait for the vaccine for those that need it most and try our best to continue to educate our young in person in the best possible way. If there is a large outbreak in a school, of course it will close temporarily - but other kids in other schools should continue to learn in person because that is in their best interests. Some kids will isolate repetitively and some won't. It is not ideal, but we all need to keep going and try our best. Luckily most schools, parents, teachers and heads are doing just that. Far from ideal, but soldering on for as long as possible.[/quote]
Absolutely. That's what I'm doing. Soldiering on. I think it would be easier to soldier on however if I wasn't working through my lunch as there's no staff and didn't have to clean my classroom myself throughout the day.

IloveJKRowling · 19/11/2020 11:26

Nothing is zero risk.

But with other risks we can say we did our best, we invest in minimising risk so we don't lose lives unnecessarily for want of some simple measures.

I wear a seatbelt, drive at or below the speed limit and follow road signs. If I have an accident I know I've done all I can. I DON'T go as fast as I can past schools and ignore all the rules of the road because 'accidents will happen anyway'.

Every single health body (WHO, Unicef, Indie Sage) has recommended that 'doing your best' to reduce risk for school opening is at least some of the following

  • smaller class sizes (max 15 per class)
  • social distancing
  • masks and DEFINITELY masks if no SD possible
  • excellent rapid test and trace,
  • testing of contacts

None of which we have in the UK. Not. One. Thing.

So we're NOT doing our best or even close. Even France now has masks age 6 and up.

We are doing the equivalent of driving 80mph all the time on the wrong side of the road and just assuming that's the same as driving within road rules, and it's either that or not drive at all.

IloveJKRowling · 19/11/2020 11:27

And the sad thing is, masks would cost nothing, but they would save lives.

canigooutyet · 19/11/2020 11:33

I find the whole mask thing weird.

Pack them into a class, oh it's fine.
Pack them into a supermarket and they would be called every kind of selfish twat you can think of, regardless of any exemption.

sherrystrull · 19/11/2020 11:36

[quote NobleElephantheThird]@sherrystrull - the argument of noblegiraffe are largely about making schools Covid safe and how the government needs to do more. No school is entirely Covid safe and never will be again. The virus is here to stay and we have to learn to live with it. Even my DD's very expensive private school with extra masks, Covid testing machines, social distancing, smaller bubbles, open windows is and cannot be 100 per cent Covid safe. And frankly not all state schools can and ever will be like my DDs school, even if we privatise the NHS and throw all money at education instead. All we can do is wait for the vaccine for those that need it most and try our best to continue to educate our young in person in the best possible way. If there is a large outbreak in a school, of course it will close temporarily - but other kids in other schools should continue to learn in person because that is in their best interests. Some kids will isolate repetitively and some won't. It is not ideal, but we all need to keep going and try our best. Luckily most schools, parents, teachers and heads are doing just that. Far from ideal, but soldering on for as long as possible.[/quote]
Do you work in a school?

Royalgiraffe · 19/11/2020 11:55

[quote NobleElephantheThird]@sherrystrull - the argument of noblegiraffe are largely about making schools Covid safe and how the government needs to do more. No school is entirely Covid safe and never will be again. The virus is here to stay and we have to learn to live with it. Even my DD's very expensive private school with extra masks, Covid testing machines, social distancing, smaller bubbles, open windows is and cannot be 100 per cent Covid safe. And frankly not all state schools can and ever will be like my DDs school, even if we privatise the NHS and throw all money at education instead. All we can do is wait for the vaccine for those that need it most and try our best to continue to educate our young in person in the best possible way. If there is a large outbreak in a school, of course it will close temporarily - but other kids in other schools should continue to learn in person because that is in their best interests. Some kids will isolate repetitively and some won't. It is not ideal, but we all need to keep going and try our best. Luckily most schools, parents, teachers and heads are doing just that. Far from ideal, but soldering on for as long as possible.[/quote]
agree with this so much. Spot on.

sherrystrull · 19/11/2020 12:27

[quote NobleElephantheThird]@sherrystrull - the argument of noblegiraffe are largely about making schools Covid safe and how the government needs to do more. No school is entirely Covid safe and never will be again. The virus is here to stay and we have to learn to live with it. Even my DD's very expensive private school with extra masks, Covid testing machines, social distancing, smaller bubbles, open windows is and cannot be 100 per cent Covid safe. And frankly not all state schools can and ever will be like my DDs school, even if we privatise the NHS and throw all money at education instead. All we can do is wait for the vaccine for those that need it most and try our best to continue to educate our young in person in the best possible way. If there is a large outbreak in a school, of course it will close temporarily - but other kids in other schools should continue to learn in person because that is in their best interests. Some kids will isolate repetitively and some won't. It is not ideal, but we all need to keep going and try our best. Luckily most schools, parents, teachers and heads are doing just that. Far from ideal, but soldering on for as long as possible.[/quote]
I don't like the tone that school staff need to shut up and get on with it. Like some kind of martyrs.
We are getting on with it. But that's not to say we don't deserve better support and funding.
I'll wait to see jf the poster responds that she works in a teaching role like i do as otherwise I'm not not why shes trying to tell me how I should react to the risk in schools.

Cookiecrisps · 19/11/2020 12:28

Schools are ‘soldiering on’. It doesn’t excuse the fact that the government are doing NOTHING to support schools when there is a lot they could do based on scientific data (see @IloveJKRowling’s list.)

I am disgusted that school staff have been lied to so much and told that schools are safe (see attached photo of billboards displayed in one town centre in September) when they are clearly not.

Is a change beginning to happen regarding schools?
IloveJKRowling · 19/11/2020 12:41

Exactly Cookie

If you had the exact same situation as in state classrooms (primary or secondary) in a shop, the shop would be breaking the law, for goodness sake. People would be up in arms.

What is wrong with people not seeing this?

The thing that bothers me most is that SOME of the measures to make school safer (masks) are really very easy to implement immediately. It could be done overnight with very little money.

There are a raft of ready made videos from WHO on how to wear properly so the kids could be trained up, as they have been in hand washing (which is MUCH less important or effective in stopping spread).

It's so easy, the science backs it and it would reduce transmission, reduce pressure on the NHS, enable schools to stay open longer.

It's like repeatedly shooting yourself in the foot for no reason whatsoever.

MrsWombat · 19/11/2020 12:44

Anedotally, there are a very high number of cases in my area, and they are closing whole year group bubbles instead of individual classes or close contacts which is what they did in September.

Elladisenchanted · 19/11/2020 12:54

My kids' primary schools and the high school I teach in are following the rules (staggered orderly drop offs and pick ups, parents must be in masks and socially distanced) lunches are on some kind of staggered rota system in the primary, books etc are quarantined 48 hours before sending home, we have set days to return them into a designated box so they can be quarantined again before the teachers handle them, windows open, hand San etc.

Despite the school's efforts one of my kids has had his bubble closed twice (with less than a week between isolations) and they've just sent home some of those children for a third isolation. Crossing over with that we've had to isolate as a family 3 times as well while we waited for (negative) test results (children with temp or cough) - at least it wasn't the full 2 weeks!

In high school when we are not teaching, we are on cover, and working until all hours to set work. I've taught by zoom because I have a primary age kid isolating, I've recorded phone lessons after midnight for pupils who can't access Internet at home, been working hours and hours to rejig my prep to make booklets so we don't hand out worksheets, and to make it more accessible from home. I teach gcse and I'm having to prep topics I've not previously taught because they weren't covered last year, somehow got to cram those topics in too (and even more prep). Meanwhile pupils are in and out of SI constantly because of family members waiting for a test or because they are a contact or have symptoms. Literally from day to day I don't know how many pupils I will have or who I will have, some bubbles I teach have closed and then when they reopened only some pupils came back because some are still isolating because of other contact.

Knowing where each pupil is up to and who managed to access the work and actually do it is a separate struggle.

Personally I am not even anxious about catching covid at this point. It almost feels inevitable as a number of staff have had it. But I do know some teachers who are extremely anxious, and I can literally see the difference to how they are normally.

Honestly at this point I don't see my pupils passing their exams if this continues as it is. I don't know how we would do teacher assessment either as even in our badly hit area each pupil has been affected so differently. I don't have any solutions, really, I just feel awful for my pupils. At least when they are in school they can continue to benefit from the social interaction with their peers. We teachers can continue to give them some sense of structure and routine, and emotionally we can connect with them and give them a bit of support. I worry about the ones at home who have to keep isolating, the effect on their mental health, particularly now it's winter and cold and dark, and they are more shut in, is much greater. There is also the effect of the instability of the constant uncertainty of being in and out. Normally we'd be thinking about the mocks coming up soon, but I think at this point really the focus should be more on the pastoral side. Anxious, stressed children don't learn.

The parents are struggling so badly too. Some are out of work, or worried for their jobs, exhausted from juggling everything, struggling with disrupted children and dealing with the same uncertainty. The conversation has often become so polarised on here, but at the heart of it all is a lot of very tired, worn out and worried people, dealing with a situation that most of us wouldn't have predicted, who care about the children, whether they are our own kids or our kids we teach . Like I said, I don't have any solutions, I really just wanted to recognise that I think most of us are trying our best, even if that's just to keep on putting one foot in front of the other. Flowers and Cake for anyone struggling, whatever your circumstances.

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2020 13:20

All we can do is wait for the vaccine for those that need it most

I don’t see everyone else carrying on as normal while waiting for a vaccine. Everyone else gets measures to improve their safety like PPE or screens or social distancing.

It appears to only be in schools where people flap about helplessly unable to see that even simple changes could make a big difference. It doesn’t even have to be the dreaded blended learning.

Like testing for the right symptoms for a start.
And testing the bubble when there’s a case.

News is that there are tests going unused. We can use them!

sherrystrull · 19/11/2020 13:22

I agree. Increased and quicker testing would help enormously.

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2020 13:24

The username tributes are a bit weird though. Hoping a bit of the glamour will rub off?

sherrystrull · 19/11/2020 13:28

I admit I spotted that too!!!

IloveJKRowling · 19/11/2020 13:53

Yes testing whole bubbles (assuming enough tests) when there's a positive case, and allowing children to get tested for tummy upsets or other symptoms too would make a huge difference as would masks, and allowing those who want to homeschool to do so without penalty.

All of things would reduce the risk somewhat and overall you'd get a huge risk reduction IMO.

IloveJKRowling · 19/11/2020 13:57

The conversation has often become so polarised on here, but at the heart of it all is a lot of very tired, worn out and worried people, dealing with a situation that most of us wouldn't have predicted

Agree with this to a point but an awful lot of people noble among them predicted exactly what we see happening, exactly how it would impact more on vulnerable children (and ECV and CV teachers and children). Scientists the world over predicted what would happen if we opened schools as we have. It's written down and recorded (Indie Sage meetings for a start). It can't be denied.

In Israel they tried opening schools like in the UK except with masks, then allowed the kids to take their masks off during a heatwave, had a massive outbreak and thought again. They wrote extensively about how it was madness to send crowded classrooms back without SD, smaller class sizes, masks etc.

So the government absolutely could predict this was going to happen there was absolutely masses of data and information and expert opinion pretty much ALL saying the exact same thing - invest in schools to make them safer.

They chose a couple of extra multimillion untendered contracts to the failed serco instead. And test and trace run by people unqualified in public health.

The point is yes, we're all worn out, yes people are getting tetchy (me included) but this WAS predictable and the government COULD HAVE done something - they did in June/July, extra funding was available then to schools (when rates were much lower than they are now).

It's not rocket science.

I do get frustrated with what seems to be a UK attitude of shrugging shoulders and saying 'what can we do?' when there are loads of examples of governments doing it better - of children getting a MUCH better deal the world over.

I don't understand why they're being let off the hook - why are we and our children being failed so dismally? There are a few journalists who have written about this scandal, mostly local news, but very few and BBC should hang their heads in shame.

IloveJKRowling · 19/11/2020 13:57

Maybe I need to write something about how I fell out with my bridesmaid over my wedding (a long time ago) to get their attention? Because UK children and parents being failed dismally compared to the rest of the world isn't newsworthy enough?

Itisasecret · 19/11/2020 15:08

@3littlewords

They are closing anyway, so tough shit.

Are you privvy to some information that the rest of us don't know? Are you Gav's right hand man or Mystic Meg?

You think and predict they are closing but you don't know this as fact its purely just your speculation

No crystal ball needed. Schools are literally closing because they don’t have the staff and there are outbreaks. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean schools are not closing, they are.

I know this as fact.

So off you pop with your sarcasm and I suggest you actually research what you’re saying when trying to look smart and failing.

Elladisenchanted · 19/11/2020 15:12

@ilovejkrowling I hear what you're saying. I do think the government messed up big time with track and trace. I also didn't understand why lockdown went on so long. It made sense to me originally - shut down long enough to slow things down, see how they could help support hospitals cope and increase capacity etc and schools/businesses etc put in safety measures, sort out a tracking system and then reopen well in advance of winter and the new term, so when the inevitable second wave hit it would be well before flu season. But things kind of meandered along and the messages from the government got muddled. I agree the government need to be held to account for that.

I don't agree though that systems are working so much better elsewhere. For example I know people in Israel and it's also problematic. Some kids are in, some are out, or on half day. They say the younger kids are disturbing the older kids, the children are bored, work is a struggle. Every system implemented is going to be flawed in some way. Looking at other countries and saying it works there is ignoring the social and physical factors that will inevitably affect how they work.

I agree generally with what @noblegiraffe writes and I find her very measured. It just seems to me anecdotally that despite taking measures in schools where we are, above and beyond the gov rules, the disruption is still massive. We have screens in class in front of teachers' desks for example, but it's still spreading crazily here. One local school was in the news for spending a huge amount on safety measures but they've still been disrupted. The main thing that noble giraffe mentioned that doesn't happen is massively improved testing systems. We waited days for a negative for example. I agree that would make a big difference.

You're right, I've been shrugging my shoulders, although it feels awful to think that. It feels more like despair and feeling like my voice won't be heard anyway than lack of interest or caring.

Swipe left for the next trending thread