Is a change beginning to happen regarding schools?

[Covidfears]

I’ve been noticing more articles lately in the mainstream press about the difficulties in schools (which will come as no surprise to most people). There’s also been some research which has basically confirmed that schools are driving infections. So, along with it looking like this lockdown has been a waste of time (due to schools being kept open to continue the spread) and people in power calling for Hull schools to be closed do we think that schools will be closing early for Christmas?

Is there any chance that blended learning or rotas will be coming in after the Christmas holidays?

We are a vulnerable family with children in primary school and the risk that sending them every day with no safety measures poses to our family is causing me huge amounts of stress.

I think the point with state / private is that in my local experience, local secondary schools were not very fast at being available online. My secondary school kids had not one single live lesson during full lockdown, and now the school has some live lessons for kids self isolating but very few.

Because there are just no resources. The difference in staffing, equipment and ready cash between most private and state schools is huge.

We've moved almost every member of non teaching staff to pastoral support and had every level 3 TA taking cover to try to keep open.

Staff doing online lessons for isolated students have to record them in their own time and try to get work back in to mark because they are teaching all day. Everyone is exhausted and the kids are still getting a disrupted education. From being solvent (at great hardship) we are now plummeting into debt to but webcams, laptops, cleaning supplies and PPE.

The government had months in which it could have paid 100 or so teachers to completely build a remote teaching structure for the whole curriculum. Individual schools trying to do it as hoc is never going to be as good.

I think it’s often said “on mumsnet the gold standard is live lessons” but it’s not actually just on mumsnet is it? We do not typically “lecture” children under the age of 16 in schools and anything pre recorded does that. It provides the information but no chance to interact, ask questions vary the pace etc. Schools just don’t say they can effectively teach nine year olds by just standing up given them a ore prepared lecture not stopping, and then telling students to go away and do a related activity by themselves with no support.

Ultimately for me unless the state system embraces live lessons (and I know four different families in four different states in the us all get live lessons! The idea that teaching is anything other than live is totally lost on them!) then you are always going to get parents like me who moan about school closures because my son cannot learn effectively by watching pre recorded videos on a national website. To me it’s the equivalent of shutting gp surgeries and saying you are not offering telephone or video calls because no one has IT so they all patients can just look up info on the nhs website and diagnose themselves! It wouldn’t work because patients are not doctors and don’t have the training and oak academy doesn’t work because kids and their parents are similarly not teachers!

But to me the reopening of schools was not specifically about being “safe” but about the fact it was the only way to give him an education and any future plan to shut schools should honestly address how we do give kids an education starting from the basis that actually education is important and not some “somewhere we send kids because their parents are sick of them”...if the narrative included a bit more about the importance of learning I would feel more comfortable but it pretty much doesn’t and feels like many have forgot why we ever bothered with state education in the first place!

Whereas I fully understand that it's extremely difficult for schools right now there is no doubt that it is the best place for my kids to be even if they end up in and out. I do think blended learning should be considered for certain secondary schools - wasn't this mentioned months ago- but for primary I'm in favour of them staying open. If things don't improve soon though surely the unions will kick off and I don't blame them.

On the other hand obviously some families have specific health concerns and I do think that those families should be able to keep their children at home - as long as there is a good reason - without having to worry about penalties.

@Musicaldilemma
Your circle of friends is a real representative survey. Right.
This is utter bollocks in general.

"and as far as Covid is concerned and children/teenagers’ risks on a population level, the argument is definitely in favour of keeping schools open and continuing as normally as possible"
The case and death numbers really underpin this. It must be nice in your alternative reality where kids are not the driving force behind infection levels....

"They have suffered enough during this pandemic"
oh ffs. Yes, there is a minority who suffered*, not even a question. BUT in general, en mass, why did the normal kids suffer?
Suffering is when they don't have shelter, food, their loved ones dying. Lets see.. maybe war... Kids in war torn countries are suffering. Kids in the uk are experiencing mild discomfort. And get to play a lot on their screens probably. As bad as that is, let's not equate that actual suffering.
*And this needs to be addressed by gov, schools asap, rather before than after. But that is still a minority!!

deregister: and lose the place for next year or the year after? If there would be an interim solution of suspended registration, but school place safe, I'm sure loads would jump on it. Me in the first second.

"This is our future work force we are talking about who will need to get us out of the pandemic financial mess."
And we are jeopardizing our future workforce's health with exposing them knowingly to potential harm like long-covid. Until we know more about multi organ and system harm done we should be erring on the side of caution.

@Randomlola

We're being told that if schools close, the standard of home learning will be much better than previously. Teachers often say how hard it was trying to do home learning when they had their own DC off school as well, but wouldn't that be the same if they shut again? How would teachers manage to juggle both this time?

It will be better because the time has been used to buy laptops and cameras, train people on new systems, get hold of anti-depressantds, develop suitable resources, etc. We've also had time to plan ways to get round the problems.

It will not magically be perfect for the reasons you say. I have two very challenging little kids. If secondaries shut I hope to god primaries stay open or I genuinely don't know if I will cope.

I don’t know a single person, teacher or parent, across 4 different schools who wants schools to close/move to blended learning etc

There is a world of difference between those two things. Has anyone on this thread actually said schools should shut?

The points being made are (broadly) that:

1. The government has shown no interest in the details of what is going on in schools and is ignoring people on the ground.

1. Lots of easy and (relative to the huge amounts being spent) cheap things could have been done to keeping schools open more.

1. In high schools it probably isn't possible to keep them all open to all children. We should prioritise GCSE, vulnerable and key worker children and plan blended learning for the rest.

In my region all high schools are sending home large numbers on and off. It is the unplanned and uncoordinated nature of this which is disrupting learning and driving the increase in Covid cases.

My DD's school could have said that yesterday. Today they have one positive case and eight staff self isolating with the wraparound care and two year groups closed.

how the bloody hell has that happened? that one positive case obviously hasn't distanced themselves from other staff then?

We haven't been told who it is but it's a small school and it's not difficult to work out. I suspect it's the one person in the school who has to go between the bubbles.

How isn't it the same?
Unlike the school holidays, if they could go in partially they wouldn't be left all week during the day.
School holidays I could break up by taking leave here and there (statutory minimum). Family could visit in the summer and take my child out some days. He met up with friends. Certainly not the same as being home alone for weeks during the last lockdown.

@TheSunIsStillShining - actually my friends are representative. Mix of top independent schools, superselective grammars, normal grammars, 3 comps, 2 leafy, 1 relatively deprived, various state primaries, preschools etc. In addition, I have tons of friends with school aged children in European and various Asian countries. For those of you with health anxiety, you should seek help with your mental anxiety. Most normal people are desperate for their children to keep going to school, as much as possible, in person, physically speaking to see their friends. Blended learning on screen is abstract. Children need each other to motivate each other to learn. And yes, they have suffered. Even those who are in top independents and have had online learning for 2 terms in the best possible way. And the top independent schools I know and am very familiar with with all the safety measures possible, still cannot guarantee no Covid. There is no intention to vaccinate school children going forward. The situation is not going to change in that regard in the foreseeable future. Extremely clinically vulnerable teachers and kids will get vaccinated, the rest will continue to go to school, in person.

The situation is not going to change in that regard in the foreseeable future. Extremely clinically vulnerable teachers and kids will get vaccinated, the rest will continue to go to school, in person.

I am an older and (not extremely) clinically-vulnerable teacher. I am just clinging on at the moment but if I thought we would all have to continue like this indefinitely, without vaccination, I would resign tomorrow.

I think it will come to a head shortly, and an extended Xmas break will happen.

No-one but no-one wants schools closed. We'd all much rather the virus just bugger off and not exist

But - given where we are with covid with almost 600 deaths yesterday and heading up - I do think it's a bit rich that people keep on arguing against wanting basic safety measures in schools as recommended by literally every reputable scientist and in every other workplace.

What next - do you want schools to do away with all fire safety to save money for the government too? I'm sure they'll be delighted to oblige.

It would make sense to close schools for an extra week before Christmas if they are going to allow families to meet up. Funny how they seem to worry about university students taking it back home and infecting their families but not school pupils.

My mates are normal. They want their children to be educated in suitable environments.

The want some type of stability for their children. They want routine for them. Two of the things that help our children develop and thrive.

If I played this game of CV yoyo, the LEA/school would come down on my arse.

Not all children need their peers to motivate each other. Many pupils find their classmates an annoyance or distraction. Many thrive better when they work independently. They need to develop these skills for their future academic choices. They are all normal children.

School holidays I could break up by taking leave here and there (statutory minimum). Family could visit in the summer and take my child out some days. He met up with friends. Certainly not the same as being home alone for weeks during the last lockdown.

For many children they don't have this break.
And if they in for part time, then why would those things stop?
(restrictions allowing).

For many, unlike posters who are now SI with their children, their parents won't be there they will be at work still. Not all children need collecting. Some will be collected by siblings often of school age.

@HipTightOnions - I don’t know how old you are but fingers crossed you will eventually qualify for an NHS Covid vaccination - if you are vulnerable too hopefully higher up on the priority list. However, there will very likely be private options available too both here and in other countries across the pond, France, Switzerland etc. I don’t think children will be vaccinated.

[quote Musicaldilemma]@TheSunIsStillShining - actually my friends are representative. Mix of top independent schools, superselective grammars, normal grammars, 3 comps, 2 leafy, 1 relatively deprived, various state primaries, preschools etc. In addition, I have tons of friends with school aged children in European and various Asian countries. For those of you with health anxiety, you should seek help with your mental anxiety. Most normal people are desperate for their children to keep going to school, as much as possible, in person, physically speaking to see their friends. Blended learning on screen is abstract. Children need each other to motivate each other to learn. And yes, they have suffered. Even those who are in top independents and have had online learning for 2 terms in the best possible way. And the top independent schools I know and am very familiar with with all the safety measures possible, still cannot guarantee no Covid. There is no intention to vaccinate school children going forward. The situation is not going to change in that regard in the foreseeable future. Extremely clinically vulnerable teachers and kids will get vaccinated, the rest will continue to go to school, in person.[/quote]

1. No, they are not representative. They are by number cannot be unless you are running a carefully designed nationwide survey.

1. I don't have health anxiety. I have scientific facts and figures and have made my own personal risk assessment. By def: "Anxiety: a feeling of worry, nervousness, or unease about something with an uncertain outcome"

I am certain on the outcome of what happens if I get Covid. So even by definition the usage of that word is wrong.
I am not anxious about my son getting it or having organ damage from it later in life. I am acknowledging the scientific fact that at this point as we know it, there is a 20-30% that if anyone catches covid they will have mid, maybe long term effects. There is no mental/emotional piece to this statement. I chose not to take this risk. I am not operating on emotions, and the fact that you dismiss arguments against your beliefs as coming from a sheer mental health issues place that needs an intervention from a professional is funny and more telling of you than me.

What I do have is anger and contempt for people like you. You operate on emotion and don't do your research. You chose to bury your head in the sand and sing lalalalala. And keep using word like suffering, life long effects of not being in education, etc. Suffering is when a kid loses a parent and for something that could have been prevented if everyone would get their heads out of their asses.
It is not suffering to have 1 or even 2 years of 14 years of education disrupted in a controlled way (say, blended learning). Uncontrolled and unmanaged disruptions without any intervention/measure of effect is detrimental more on a personal level. But all you can suggest is that I get help and to carry on as normal.

1. I have tons of friends too. As most of us. Mine are on 3 diff continents and across at least 10 countries. And? They have varying opinions based on their location and situation. And? How is that relevant what your friends in Asia believe or say? And do you think I give a shit?

1. I have never advocated to fully close schools. What I have been/will always be saying:

• we need proper measures in schools. Eg.: Masks for all and every time. Or proper distancing
• the system needs to differentiate. Having binary options of mass gathering and deregister is wrong. There are multiple categories that kids/families fall into. Some are able to educate their kids at home, but want their place to be secure for when this is over. Some can't do this (it doesn't matter if they are uneducated to teach A level material or have to work) and need professionals to do it for their kids.
• there is no blanket solution. And mixing primary/secondary is simply wrong.
• stop making this a political/emotional issue. There are facts to guide us. Like the fact that this is an airborne virus, so the charade of handwashing is quite farcical.
• We need to have a framework that is flexible enough for both parents and teachers to have alternatives and intervention points. We need to measure on a pupil by pupil basis the effects that this has. Not now, but in the months/years to come. And a robust system has to be there to support them. Not the all strings attached catch up plan that is more of a mock than real help.
• and I will always emphasize: do not use the word education when you mean childcare. Let's separate the 2 and solve them at the point where it needs to be solved.

I understand Sweden is now permitting high schools to decide for themselves if they need to go to blended learning or not. I wonder what the “We should be more like Sweden” crew will make of that?

how the bloody hell has that happened? that one positive case obviously hasn't distanced themselves from other staff then?

Because SDing in schools isn't always possible, certainly not from the children and not always from staff, depending on the school set up and layout.

Had PHE used the same date as T&T did for my positive result (T&T used symptom date; PHE at school used test date as symptoms not one of main 3) then at least 5 or 6 classes, possibly more, would have had to SI. I work right across school in an infant school so SDing isn't going to happen. The TA of the reception classes may well have needed to, too as couldn't guarantee they were always 2m apart in the classroom set ups.

IMO, in my case, PHE used the easier option as that meant no classes, no adults and no children needed to SI.

I hope not. The last lockdown drove our son to anger and he was hitting me. All stopped when went back to school in September !

@canigooutyet - if I felt my children learn better alone at home I would deregister them and sign up for online school and or homeschool. It is legal to do that in this country - it isn’t legal in all countries. There is that option for anyone who feels strongly about it. Anyone who feels strongly about Covid and not being in school should do just that and not try and sway public opinion and spoil the lives of the majority of children and the future workforce. It is selfish.

Qasd

We surveyed a mixed selection of our school parents. Not a single one wanted live lessons for delivery. They wanted more flexibility as to when and how they could do the learning, especially if juggling the needs of lots of family members.

In the summer we did one live 'get together' type thing with each class. Even with lots of rules, the ability to mute, etc. they just didn't achieve anywhere near as much as pre recorded did before or after. It did show the small number of parents who'd asked about it that it wasn't the answer for our school hence our latest findings.

And no, a properly done pre recorded lesson isn't just a lecture. Ours are fairly interactive, asking children questions, getting them to pause and complete a task alongside the teacher, asking them to 'talk with a partner' etc. At 4 -7 years old aa sit and just listen lesson wouldn't work, and Im afraid for our children live lessons simply aren't the answer.

For those of you with health anxiety, you should seek help with your mental anxiety

ODFOD. How fucking dare you suggest that people who are older,over weight, with conditions such as cancer or type 1 diabetes (or a mix of all those) just have ‘mental anxiety’. You should try it. Work in a school with small children who need support to effectively learn and be over the age of 55 and\be a type 1 diabetic^ and come back and tell me about ‘mental fucking anxiety’.

Jesus wept.

DDs year group are working remotely all this week and we will find out if again mextand other year groups too.
There has also been a rota system for one day a week off for other year groups.
I firmly believe they will close before Christmas and quite rightly.
I had a journo on twitter actually ask me for a quote after I mentioned the whole mad clusterfuck at the DCs school so they are getting round to slating the PM over it

The situation is not going to change in that regard in the foreseeable future. Extremely clinically vulnerable teachers and kids will get vaccinated, the rest will continue to go to school, in person.

I am not CEV.
I am CV. I am 47y.
Covid had me sent to hospital due to complications. A blue light ambulance was called due to the dangerously high level my blood pressure had reached. I have been absent for six weeks. I am hoping to return next week if my blood pressure and heart rate is stable enough with the medication I now need to take.

I think based on the list that was out previously I am about number 7 or 8 of 10 for the vaccine.

I am really really hoping that I have some immunity after this as I am not sure I can deal with this again, especially as my blood pressure is now another factor to add to the things that make me vulnerable. Its only reduced now (stage 1 hypertension instead of critical levels) with ongoing medication.