Secondary schools are fucked, BOFFINS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

Latest ONS random sampling data shows that secondary school children in Y7-11 are now the age group with the highest infection rate in England, overtaking sixth form and university students.

In Wales "Schoolchildren are more likely to catch and spread coronavirus than previously thought, experts have warned... It was also discovered that while children were far more likely to be asymptomatic and not become seriously unwell, they were more likely to be the first positive case in any household."

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/schoolchildren-more-likely-catch-spread-19275959?fbclid=IwAR0kpoikv0D_nkwHx3lVyQX_cyDj6Ycy1d6gE3aRx6syxUKzFQsYzMDSqPw

English boffins are a bit slower on the uptake though
"SAGE’s report found that prevalence of Covid-19 in school-age children had “risen significantly” in the first wave, and that the rise in prevalence was “first visible around the time that schools reopened”.

However, it said that while this “may be indicative of a potential role for school opening, causation, including the extent to which transmission is occurring in schools, is unproven and difficult to establish”.

schoolsweek.co.uk/child-infection-rate-rise-began-when-schools-reopened-but-direct-link-unproven-says-sage/

It must indeed be difficult to establish whether there's transmission in a high risk environment where kids are packed in like sardines with no mitigation measures. A real head-scratcher. Especially if you spent the whole summer insisting that it would be fine because the kids are facing forward.

What do we want? Well, one of the major teaching unions has called on the government to:

1. Demonstrate that they are following the scientific evidence and advice.
2. Strengthen the guidance to schools and colleges on ensuring COVID-safe and COVID-secure working practices.
3. Secure the updating and publication of health and safety risk assessments and equality impact assessments by school and college employers.
4. Publish weekly data on positive cases of COVID-19 infections of school/college staff and pupils by local government area
5. Ramp up inspection and enforcement measures in schools and colleges, including more comprehensive use of spot checks and visits by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).
6. Take swift action to protect public health in the event of an outbreak.
7. Protect vulnerable teachers and support staff and pupils.
8. Strengthen the guidance to insist on effective social distancing in schools/colleges.
9. Establish a national plan for remote education/blended and distance learning.

10. Provide significant additional financial support for schools and colleges urgently to ensure the safety of staff and pupils, including extra funding for cleaning, personal protective equipment (PPE) and supply teachers

www.nasuwt.org.uk/article-listing/plan-to-keep-schools-safe-during-pandemic.html

Oh OP I knew this would be you yadayada...yeah that's why I chose the same thread title as before etc etc.

Why do we need another thread blah blah: it's because secondary school kids are now infected at the highest rates in the country. This has implications for lockdown. How effective will it be if the most infected subset of the population are mixing freely? And it's also the first hint from scientists that they might have been wrong about exactly how safe schools are. There's also a strong suggestion that kids are bringing the virus home from school which parents should be aware of.

It's also causing chaos in schools, but there's another thread about that.

Teenager mental health and suicides through the roof I would be more worried about that than this bloody virus

Evidence? If you look at the stats, school aged kids had a LOWER suicide rate during lockdown (this was covered in one of the data and analysis threads in depth). There is no robust evidence for this common assertion that I've heard.

Regardless, most people want safer schools with more measures which will result in more consistent schooling, greater feeling of safety, fewer sick kids and their parents and fewer closures.

Which surely can only result in better mental health for all.

wildbarnet agree completely

Posting the same thread on MN on a weekly basis is not “doing something.”

COVID has accounted for something like 13 percent of deaths this year. All deaths are sad. COVID is not the only cause of death..

Not this again. There should already be Covid safe measures in schools. It’s a disgrace that our children have missed out so much education already. We should not ever close schools like that again.

@MrPickles73

COVID has accounted for something like 13 percent of deaths this year. All deaths are sad. COVID is not the only cause of death..

13%..... a disease that didn't exist a year ago...

At primary level it’s all too easy to say pull out and home Ed. Secondary school isn’t that simple if you want them to have GCSE’s. They are incredibly hard to arrange privately because of the work involved and a reluctance of Private tutors to Mark course work.
One of the reasons why so many home Ed only at primary and enter the school system at secondary, and little to do with the socializing of things because they do this anyway through various clubs and groups, just like any other kid.

Also secondary schools are blatantly not “fucked”. At least they are open and teaching some pupils which is a huge improvement to before.

@JacobReesMogadishu

If the staff room is an issue (I know it’s only a small part) maybe that needs looking at? I work in a hospital and staff only allowed in the staff room for a max of 5 mins, so literally just enough time for a sandwich and some water. It does mean no proper breaks, on a 13 hour shift but guess it may help reduce transmission between staff which is happening on some wards.

Every school is different of course but my school staff room has been closed since September and we still have had whole year groups have to isolate and teachers teach from home. Pupils have tested positive and have passed on to each other (a couple of the cases have come from boyfriend/girlfriend so obviously no social distancing going on there despite what our school has desperately tried to ensure. We can’t control what happens at home)

This will also be me next week as my DC’s primary school bubble has closed (parent selfishly sent in child whilst child was waiting for test result, so we have to do the full 14 days) and I have to be home with her.

I will be teaching through Teams into the classroom with a cover teacher physically in the room but I feel incredibly guilty that those will be my colleagues giving up their PPA to do that for me.

This isn’t sustainable and unless the government starts listening to the actual data as posted by noble, and some parents will just turn a blind eye as long as their children are physically in school, it will just get worse.
Maybe with Cummings gone things might change?

I work in a secondary of 1800 kids.

Most weeks there’s between 250-350 isolating.

Every. Week.

Draw your own conclusion.....

All those ‘well there’s been no cases at my dc’s school’

How do you know? The data isn’t common knowledge.

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince we get emailed every time there is a case. Unless the head is deliberately omitting cases, we do know. There have been 3 cases.

@borageforager

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince we get emailed every time there is a case. Unless the head is deliberately omitting cases, we do know. There have been 3 cases.

Emailing for a confirmed case yes but that is only if a parent informs the school. Did you not read the 250-350 isolating every week in her post? Many will either be not tested or a positive case hidden from the school by a parent (has happened in my school and was only the parent of the boyfriend of the girlfriend testing positive that we found out). Doesn’t mean that a school has had no or very few cases.

Equally, parents are still sending their children into school at all costs, even when waiting for a test. Asymptomatic cases are on the rise and we just don’t know the full amount.
What we do know from the ONS stats that noble posted is that they are rising.

Another point is that with so many children off ‘ill’ (because some parents don’t want to admit they might be isolating) or self isolating, as well as staff (which you would not be getting emails about) that this is hugely disruptive for all involved and just not helping anyone’s education. Instead, it is widening the gap more so every day.

We’ve had around 12 cases at our school, students and staff. They reckon infection was from multiple sources. Half occurred at half term. They’re are around 250 students isolating and 17 staff members. However infection rate last week was 1 in 85 so this just reflects infection rate in the community though. It is a logistical problem for schools though and they should get more funds to pay for supply staff. So glad though blended learning wasn’t introduced though as my children haven’t missed any school this term, with blended learning they would have missed two thirds.

The decisions made about school opening in September really need a long hard look given the figures we are now looking at nationwide. There needs to be a similar report as was done in care homes.

I never did believe all that rubbish about Covid not being spread in schools. "There is no evidence of the virus spreading in schools", they said. Of course there wasn't, schools were closed!

1. Demonstrate that they are following the scientific evidence and advice.
2. Strengthen the guidance to schools and colleges on ensuring COVID-safe and COVID-secure working practices.

I get the impression that you still think you can control the virus spread amongst children.

All the ‘measures’ are not going to stop spread. Masks even when high grade and worn properly don’t totally prevent spread, never mind the reused not worn properly versions, which are next to useless.

I think when people criticise your post and say you just want schools closed, that is why.

You are basically saying that unless you can totally guarantee that the virus won’t spread and is eliminated in schools then it’s not right. But this is an impossible dream. None of the measures that are available will achieve that.

So, close the schools is really what you are putting forward. That’s the underlying proposition.

Virtual learning is not true learning. Learning isn’t getting an exercise on a hub on a website which you complete on your own. People can call it learning all they like but it’s not any definition of learning I’ve seen. At best it is instruction.

Infections are around 1 in 85 in England though, are schools really worse then that? Absolutely schools should have opened in September. Denying children an education is terrible.

My school only contacts parents if their child is one of the ones to isolate. No other information is sent.

They did with the first one, then they stopped.

And 350 kids out of school is huge. It’s not just close contacts in school who isolate if near a case. It’s people advised to isolate by track and trace, it’s because family members have symptoms/waiting for tests/ having surgery.

So unless you work inside a school you have no real idea. Just none. And it’s all being kept very quiet.

Opening that list everyday is terrifying.

Obviously we all agree education is important for all. Surely it is becoming very clear now (for some many months ago) children are infected and do pass on this virus. The government seemed to be in denial until more recently to get schools reopened. So dare I say children catch and pass the virus on so why on earth are they are not following the 2m rule? Obviously because they can’t remain in full class sizes. However, just because that is the case doesn’t make it right or mean they should just carry on. Every other business/work place has had to adhere to the 2m rule or mitigate with screens/masks etc. Schools should be no different. If that means blended learning/part time learning so be it

I also think the idea of a Covid secure work place is not really possible. We know covid secure pubs still spread the virus, The hospital I work in also ‘covid secure’ has had to shut 3 wards due to covid outbreaks among staff and patients.

Blended learning will be children loose half to two thirds of their education.

I think when people criticise your post and say you just want schools closed, that is why.

No, they do that because they can’t actually formulate a coherent response to what I’ve actually posted. It’s been going on a long time regardless of what I write.

Improving ventilation, masks, mass testing when there are positive cases to flush out asymptomatic cases instead of the absolutely moronic ‘send the kid home who sat next to them’ policy are all totally possible and would reduce transmission in schools.

We’re in the middle of a national lockdown in England. The entire country is expected to make massive modifications to their lives in order to reduce the infection rate to manageable levels, and yet there have been no amendments to schools where the current measures aren’t working and infection rates are highest. Pub, shop, restaurant owners should be fucking furious about how counter-productive this is. The whole country should be fucking furious. This lockdown will be less effective and possibly drag on for longer because of the insistence that nothing can be done in schools bar close them. ‘We can’t close them, therefore nothing can be done’ mentality is totally destructive.

This was in our latest updated from CLEAPSS, who provide health and safety advice science for schools in England.

1. Social Distancing

This is distinct from separating groups above and DfE guidance is that these “…are not ‘all or nothing’ options’ and will still bring benefits even if implemented partially” The expectations from the DfE are that a) Staff should aim to maintain a 2m social distance from all other members of staff and from pupils. (We note recent HSE inspections have found that school staff aren’t always adhering to this very important rule, which compromises a basic control measure to reduce the transmission of COVID-19. Please remind ALL staff about this vitally important rule) b) Wherever possible pupils should maintain a social distance of at least 1m “It is strong public health advice that staff in secondary schools maintain distance from their pupils, staying at the front of the class, and away from their colleagues where possible. Ideally, adults should maintain 2 metre distance from each other, and from children”

The social distancing in schools at least our school is very poor. But it's the students as well as the teachers, the kids just don't seem to care. I had a whole class stream passed me the other day. So much for lockdown.

[quote Hercwasonaroll]@MarmiteCrumpet25q We've (strangely) had far more teachers off with it than support staff. Logically this doesn't make sense. They are closer to the students.

Why did the school put them in year group assemblies?
That is a bonkers decision.

Why do they travel to school on a packed bus?
What are the alternatives?

There is no one size fits all solution for all schools but there are many many ways to improve things. Why can’t this happen?

Government won't allow it or fund it.[/quote]
Hi yes my point was the govt should fund it

It’s a drop in the ocean compared to what they’ve had to spend and I really don’t understand why they don’t. It’s a political own goal

Money was provided for councils to provide more school buses though. It didn’t happen our way

@Susanwouldntlikeit

These ‘Boffins’ may be able to collect data and number crunch - minimal skill required to do that these days/ they are severely limited in their ability to analyse and interpret it. The virus is now endemic so it is in the community and the possibility to limit transmission or eradicate has gone. Lockdown is a crude measure that just doesn’t work because done services have to remain open for society to function, and so the virus to continue to spread in those locations. The nonsense about SD and masks is just that -those measures are ineffectual and it is not possible to make those places ‘covid secure’. The nature of schools and schools children means that germs spread ‘tweed ever thus and we have to accept that and put resources into treating people with severe symptoms, not in a ridiculous effort to avoid being infected because there is no effective method to achieve that. In my school we have the minimum mitigation’s for Covid as required by the Dfe, no more than that. Everyone has to wear —pointless— masks in the corridors indoors, but in the classrooms only a few whose parents have terrified them into thinking it sill keep them ‘safe’. In a medium sized secondary with a large catchment area of boroughs with ‘high cases’ we have had ONE member of staff tested positive and none of the pupils s/he teaches. We have had ONE child test positive who was asymptomatic but the child’s family are —bonkers— part of a volunteer random tested group. We are not demanding PPE/plastic screens/blended learning we just carry on teaching as normally as possible and definitely do not want the sort of restrictions that done posted on here are demanding. I’m actually amazed that MN allows co-ordinated group posting by a tiny coterie on here, whipped up from their Staffroom Republic thread.

The child’s family are bonkers for joining a random testing group?

You should be on your knees thanking people like that who are doing their bit to help keep people safe. We need to do surveys like this so we know the prevalence of Covid in different areas in order to plan for things like hospital admissions. This shitshow would be a whole lot shittier without this information.

I would be ecstatic if Noble was my child’s teacher. She comes across as intelligent, caring and willing to speak up for what is right. I would be very unhappy if you were. You come across as rude, dismissive and utterly, utterly stupid.