Secondary schools are fucked, BOFFINS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

Latest ONS random sampling data shows that secondary school children in Y7-11 are now the age group with the highest infection rate in England, overtaking sixth form and university students.

In Wales "Schoolchildren are more likely to catch and spread coronavirus than previously thought, experts have warned... It was also discovered that while children were far more likely to be asymptomatic and not become seriously unwell, they were more likely to be the first positive case in any household."

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/schoolchildren-more-likely-catch-spread-19275959?fbclid=IwAR0kpoikv0D_nkwHx3lVyQX_cyDj6Ycy1d6gE3aRx6syxUKzFQsYzMDSqPw

English boffins are a bit slower on the uptake though
"SAGE’s report found that prevalence of Covid-19 in school-age children had “risen significantly” in the first wave, and that the rise in prevalence was “first visible around the time that schools reopened”.

However, it said that while this “may be indicative of a potential role for school opening, causation, including the extent to which transmission is occurring in schools, is unproven and difficult to establish”.

schoolsweek.co.uk/child-infection-rate-rise-began-when-schools-reopened-but-direct-link-unproven-says-sage/

It must indeed be difficult to establish whether there's transmission in a high risk environment where kids are packed in like sardines with no mitigation measures. A real head-scratcher. Especially if you spent the whole summer insisting that it would be fine because the kids are facing forward.

What do we want? Well, one of the major teaching unions has called on the government to:

1. Demonstrate that they are following the scientific evidence and advice.
2. Strengthen the guidance to schools and colleges on ensuring COVID-safe and COVID-secure working practices.
3. Secure the updating and publication of health and safety risk assessments and equality impact assessments by school and college employers.
4. Publish weekly data on positive cases of COVID-19 infections of school/college staff and pupils by local government area
5. Ramp up inspection and enforcement measures in schools and colleges, including more comprehensive use of spot checks and visits by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).
6. Take swift action to protect public health in the event of an outbreak.
7. Protect vulnerable teachers and support staff and pupils.
8. Strengthen the guidance to insist on effective social distancing in schools/colleges.
9. Establish a national plan for remote education/blended and distance learning.

10. Provide significant additional financial support for schools and colleges urgently to ensure the safety of staff and pupils, including extra funding for cleaning, personal protective equipment (PPE) and supply teachers

www.nasuwt.org.uk/article-listing/plan-to-keep-schools-safe-during-pandemic.html

Oh OP I knew this would be you yadayada...yeah that's why I chose the same thread title as before etc etc.

Why do we need another thread blah blah: it's because secondary school kids are now infected at the highest rates in the country. This has implications for lockdown. How effective will it be if the most infected subset of the population are mixing freely? And it's also the first hint from scientists that they might have been wrong about exactly how safe schools are. There's also a strong suggestion that kids are bringing the virus home from school which parents should be aware of.

It's also causing chaos in schools, but there's another thread about that.

the point is some teachers managed to do online lessons with their classes and others didn't bother to.

Not always a question of "being bothered".

I had a 3yo and 6mo at home with me. I couldn't do live lessons during the day. It was a safeguarding concern as I didn't want my kids on the screen.

Plenty of teachers didn't have the technology to provide online lessons. We don't get given any equipment for home learning. I used my personal laptop, not all staff have one.

Not saying your sons school did a good job. It sounds like they could have done more. What age is he?

@noblegiraffe
don't misunderstand me, I am very supportive of teachers in general and especially now. Our school has done a fantastic job at switching from one day to the next. But what is happening since September is utter disgrace. And I hate feeling like an idiot when I know I have facts to back up my decisions. But when you are arguing with a pigeon, be prepared to be shat on and knocked over....

There would be some really simple, cheap solutions. But the british exceptionalism just won't allow the use of them. I kind of hear the phrase "We're not sinking!" over and over in my head with the picture of an iceberg....

1. make kids wear a mask all day, every day, everywhere
2. allow pupils who live close by to go home for the lunch break. This is quite specific to us as we live 6 minutes walk away and my son said if 1. was in place and he could come home to not eat with 140 other he would consider going in. I'm sure that there are others in this position.

1. could we skip the children's life expectancy and earning potential will be forever harmed... potentially yes. But en mass: no. Local teams should and could deal with these if they had funding and support. gov doesn't give either. Let's not endanger everyone because some might be left behind. Create a plan on how they can be picked up.

1. As for alternatives. Look around Europe and there are multiple alternatives not just in school/deregister. The uk system is rigid and basically my way or the highway mentality. (not only the education system)

Yes still doing assemblies and mixed year groups detentions here which seems rather unnecessary. Given that an awful lot of fully grown adults can’t comply with the rules and can’t wear a mask properly for a short shopping trip we’re expecting a lot of children. How many adults would wear a mask outside? And How many adults would sit still next to an open window with no heating on when the temperature outside is zero degrees? Eat their lunch sat on a cold and wet field with no shelter wearing a flimsy school skirt? There is a reason that adults aren’t generally expected to work in office temperatures under 16 degrees. Surely we’re not expecting teachers and students to be effectively working like this in the depths of winter, I think there will come a time when some schools just can’t remain open in the same way.

I agree with @BungleandGeorge it’s even worse for the little kids . Some as young as 5 sitting shivering in classrooms it’s inhumane .

I don't get it. Kids are in school for 14 years. In the UK the curriculum is so light anyway. Does anyone really believe that one year can cause all that damage - en masse?
I want a system in place that protects vulnerable children, but endangering 14m kids is reckless on the unproven hypothesis of some might lose out. Surely people have heard of targeted intervention, right?

If it’s a concern having young children on camera on video calls just turn the camera off, you can still see the kids so no problem really. Or pre-recorded material can work. Weren’t teachers eligible for keyworker childcare at nursery though? Lack of equipment is very poor I agree

Yes, secondary schools are indeed fucked.

The teachers are fucked

The pupils are fucked

The parents of the pupils are fucked

The families of the pupils and teachers are fucked

It is a fucking horror show.

Can you imagine a pupil getting infected, going home and infecting a parent who then dies of Covid. That's his / her life royally fucked.

So many ways to do this better than this disgraceful government has done e.g. masks, visors, one week school - one week remote, alternating groups (smaller classes, more distanced) far more online, vulnerable staff teach remotely (even if the pupils are in class) etc etc.

I've learned from many threads it's really not worth engaging with Ecosse Madrid, they simply parrot the same things over and over and never actually read anything others say, it's as if they have a script in front of them. I see they've wheeled out the tired old line they like to use about the stats of those who have died without underlying conditions, once again, to remind us that people who really matter aren't dying very much. They very much like the phrase 'vast majority' and use it to justify their covid denial at every turn. It's really sad but I've come to the conclusion it must be some kind of bot with a script as there's so little engagement :( That, or maybe their fear is causing them to shut down debate. That's really worrying me tbh :(

Maybe you could prove me wrong, Madrid, and actually read the latest stats and reports, and properly analyse them?

@TheSunIsStillShining

I don't get it. Kids are in school for 14 years. In the UK the curriculum is so light anyway. Does anyone really believe that one year can cause all that damage - en masse? I want a system in place that protects vulnerable children, but endangering 14m kids is reckless on the unproven hypothesis of some might lose out. Surely people have heard of targeted intervention, right?

I agree, missing a year's school doesn't do that much damage at all. If any.

A good friend of mine is German and said it was traditional there for children to take a whole year off school in year 11. They would e.g. go to the States, do other things etc. You don't hear about how damaged they were; on the contrary, they ended up more successful than people who didn't take the year off .

I know people who missed loads of school due to illness. They did fine later; went to uni, etc

It's totally exaggerated how missing school for a while is allegedly so damaging.

I think they are trying to justify the stupid fines for non-attendance.

Education plays a huge part in life chances and therefore life expectancy

I see you've modified the usual unreferenced tripe you have spouted under your Ecosse avatar, MadridSun

Education attainment and life expectancy is overwhelmingly linked to social class. Unlike you, I'll reference it:

www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files/poorer-children-education-full.pdf

www.ft.com/content/72110f9e-0ab1-11df-b35f-00144feabdc0

Maybe you could prove me wrong, Madrid, and actually read the latest stats and reports, and properly analyse them?

As if. :o

[quote MadridSun]@BertNErnie

There is no need for whole bubbles to be sent home following a positive test. This goes against PHE and DFE guidance.

Only close contacts need to be isolated.[/quote]
then the guidance is as fucking crap as the nonsense you have been spouting and the fucking DFE need to catch up with the fucking fact that the Government's own fucking scientists ADMIT that kids transmit this AND take it home. For fuckssake.

Aaaaand as if by magic the story has disappeared.... now you see me, now you don't. Someone at DfE was on it to get that taken down pretty quick. I didn't imagine it did I?

I think they need to start finding parents who are sending in children with a NEW cough; or a temp without having a negative result. We’ve even had kids being sent in while families were waiting for their test results, and shock horror results were positive.

I now think fining none compliant families is the way to go, as well as the many other suggestions.

Juststopswimming

I absolutely knew who had started this thread before even reading it

Me too because the ops posts are always very well thought out and backed up by data.

@Diverseopinions

I'm not quite sure why secondary school kids wait at the bus stop in crowds, masks pulled down to their chins, chatting and huddling close. Then they board the bus and find their seats with masks dangling from pockets or down on their chins. Sometimes, I notice in passing, they put back their masks once they've finished talking. It's a common practice, polite kids who move to let you pass; girls, boys. Kids you can't imagine dropping litter. There is anxiety, no doubt, about passing the virus to vulnerable older relatives. There must be. Fear too, that disregarding the rules will lead to a longer lockdown. I don't get it. Why aren't they conforming with the rules, and why isn't some measure in place on the buses themselves to enforce the rules?

I'm sure members of the public wouldn't want to remind a child, for fear of upsetting them, or coming across as heavy-handed. There are big notices on the buses to reinforce the rules, but it isn't working. If masks are worn in school - why isn't the habit being generalised?

This is exactly how my dd is acting. Like a sheep. Like everyone else. It drives me insane. She told me when they went back the bus driver on her bus - she’s now changed buses - didn’t enforce the seating plan or expect them to wear masks. I have had words. But I am not around to ensure she obeys the rules; she doesn’t want to be seen as uncool, not doing whatever everyone else is doing. And I have explained her dad is over 50 and as an unwell person also recovering from major surgery, I would be more susceptible.

I would gladly, gladly have the school come down on her and the other kids like a ton of bricks. But they’re not doing so. I know the school has enough to do so this is by no means a criticism. To reduce infection, there needs to be a large societal shift. Bus drivers refusing to drive if the children are not wearing their masks. Schools insisting mask wearing is adhered to with threats of punishment - and I get that this one is is hard to do. Parents leading by example.

And on the point of Covid secure buildings. Yup tots agree the buildings are Covid secure.... until the moment the doors are open and the kids are let in through the doors. We live in what was a tier 1 area and even here we have 2 classes isolating plus the whole of year 9 off due to staff shortages. It must be savage in the tier 3 areas.

I read the link someone posted upthread of emergency school closures on the Oxfordshire cc website and checked on the one in my region. Nothing. Tumbleweed. Ffs.

@monkeytennis97

Aaaaand as if by magic the story has disappeared.... now you see me, now you don't. Someone at DfE was on it to get that taken down pretty quick. I didn't imagine it did I?

Sorry I’m confused. What are you referring to Monkey?

I would gladly, gladly have the school come down on her and the other kids like a ton of bricks. But they’re not doing so.

There is a huge discipline issue in school at the moment. Schools can't use the "normal" behaviour sanctions and the absence of lots of staff is creating issues.

Some kids are having whole days worth of cover work. This isn't good for them. They'd be better off at home and learning online quite frankly.

Many of our kids travel by train. They're seen onto the train by us, wearing masks. But we've had complaints from the train company that they don't keep them on. We've suggested perhaps that they should ask them to do so - but the guard doesn't come out of his cab "for his safety" so that's apparently a no-go.

The staffroom is indeed a problem in my school : there is a modicum of truth in that. It is small, no one opens the windows. People don't go in there for their 'well earned coffee break (a: I hate coffee, rather have tea thanks, Jen and b) how patronising) but our photocopier is there. So, yes, staff do gather for chats. It drives me beyond bonkers.But Jenny H has not been heard from for months now so quoting her is really not relevant, This was said at the point when scientists had no evidence young people even spread it : look how far we have moved from that position! This is not just a British problem : school all over Europe are partially or fully closing. A recent study in the Netherlands, and in Denmark DID pinpoint school reopening to spikes in case. A lot of SAGE's own recent 'yes,but; it's all OK because' findings are 'low confidence'. I urge people to read their whole report published yesterday There is low confidence in the research that suggests there will be long term impacts on young people, for example, because there are so few studies (obviously) that exist: and those that do show the opposite.

However, a large part of this is complacency mixed with duty and also existential despair. The complacency created by the boffins (aiding the government's narrative) which allowed for months people to peddle the myth that schools are safe and teachers are safe. . Duty because teachers are still told they have to be the very best (if not better) teacher that can be even in these pressured times ,and Ofsted still dropping by - oh, except for in the last few weeks to keep them safe!! An existential despair because we think - sod it, looks like we are now frontline workers at the same risk as care staff. Oh well, might as well crack on and get it over and done with then. That is not sustainable for schools.

What I find offensive about madrid's posting style is that she has repeatedly blamed teachers (who endeavour to stay 2m away from he kids) for passing on the virus to the pupils. If schools are not to blame then parents, government and society ought to look at how the young people's behaviour is being mitigated and controlled beyond the school gates.

Many many studies going back many years show that public sector workers have different attitudes to the purpose of work from private sector workers. There is a tendency amongst school staff to view what they do as for a greater good. But something has to give when the sacrifice that people have made who have gone into a job because of love of learning, their subject and to support young people,is their own physical health and increasing issues with already poor mental wellbeing. And then to be told by posters like madrid that they are at fault for the health of their pupils and their pupils' families is a final straw..

lTheSunIsStillShining are you sure they can’t go home at lunchtime? I’ve known a few kids at primary school who do this, maybe it’s different at secondary.

Covid: Children more likely to be infected in second wave https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54937486

@Hercwasonaroll

I would gladly, gladly have the school come down on her and the other kids like a ton of bricks. But they’re not doing so.

There is a huge discipline issue in school at the moment. Schools can't use the "normal" behaviour sanctions and the absence of lots of staff is creating issues.

Some kids are having whole days worth of cover work. This isn't good for them. They'd be better off at home and learning online quite frankly.

I totally appreciate there are discipline issues. Teachers hardly want to give detentions right now if they can avoid it - infection plus being stretched due to teachers isolating. They also need to avoid other sanctions such as temporary exclusion. I’d be happy with laps of the school field, litter picking and toilet cleaning etc. Pretty sure a lot of these sort of measures wouldn’t fly in this day and age.... and teachers hardly have time to administer these...

My dd comes home saying how she hates a lot of the teachers because they’re so strict. Imo they have to be due to the sheer size of the place. 9 class intake 7-11, plus the post 16’s.

If the staff room is an issue (I know it’s only a small part) maybe that needs looking at? I work in a hospital and staff only allowed in the staff room for a max of 5 mins, so literally just enough time for a sandwich and some water. It does mean no proper breaks, on a 13 hour shift but guess it may help reduce transmission between staff which is happening on some wards.