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Worried that the military and NHS are on standby to deliver vaccines

742 replies

BurningRose · 10/11/2020 18:09

Just heard this on the BBC news at 6.Does this mean the military will be injecting people? Will it be mandatory for certain groups? This is rather worrying.

OP posts:
pigcon1 · 11/11/2020 07:45

I’m not worried

scaevola · 11/11/2020 07:49

@RoseAndRose

Relevant part of HMR. I have bolded the bit that shows that any person can administer, provided they are directed by an appropriate professional:

Sale or supply of prescription only medicines

214.—(1) A person may not sell or supply a prescription only medicine except in accordance with a prescription given by an appropriate practitioner.

(2) A person may not parenterally administer (otherwise than to himself or herself) a prescription only medicine unless the person is—

(a)an appropriate practitioner other than an EEA health professional; or

(b)acting in accordance with the directions of such an appropriate practitioner

(3) The following are appropriate practitioners in relation to any prescription only medicine—

(a)a doctor;
(b)a dentist;
(c)a supplementary prescriber;
(d)a nurse independent prescriber; and
(e)a pharmacist independent prescriber.
(4) A community practitioner nurse prescriber is an appropriate practitioner in relation to a prescription only medicine specified in Schedule 13.

(5) An optometrist independent prescriber is an appropriate practitioner in relation to any prescription only medicine other than—

(a)a medicinal product that is a controlled drug; or
(b)a medicinal product that is for parenteral administration.
(6) An EEA health professional is an appropriate practitioner in relation to any prescription only medicine other than a controlled drug.

(7) This regulation is subject to Chapter 3 (exemptions).

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 11/11/2020 08:11

@IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls

There are some really mis informed people on here spouting absolute nonsense.

Seriously if you want to cast doubt on a vaccine at least read about the vaccines and the mhra in great detail first .

Is that aimed at me?
furloughandfallow · 11/11/2020 08:28
  • @WiseUpJanetWeiss only registered nurses can give injections. Including vaccines.*

That's wrong. As a dentist we obviously give oral injections every day, and we are trained to a very high level in administering emergency medical drugs such as adrenaline ( for anaphylactic reactions, making us ideal candidates to administer IM vaccines). We are also trained to administer glucagon for hypoglycaemia in diabetics amongst others.

This thread is full of misinformation and scaremongering. It's quite frightening

Toddlerteaplease · 11/11/2020 08:39

I've met several people who have had Covid more than once. I've also had it and I will be one of the first in the queue to get it when it's released!

NerrSnerr · 11/11/2020 08:52

@IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls

Why just make stuff up? My friend is a HCA and she did a flu clinic last weekend. Pharmacists and dentists give injections and someone upthread has their flu jab given by a psychologist.

MadameBlobby · 11/11/2020 08:56

I don’t want to minimise the importance but Jesus it’s giving an injection. It’s hardly brain surgery. Surely given lots of people inject themselves on a daily basis with medication it must be easy enough to train people to do it.

ememem84 · 11/11/2020 08:57

I was watching BBC news this morning and they were interviewing a GP in south london. She said that they'd been told to get ready for vaccines from december. which is fine great all wonderful.

however, she said that to get everyone in the area they'd have to be vaccinating 975 people a week. they would need to have people distancing and not leaving surgery for 15 minutes after the vaccination (not sure why?). they need more storage for the vaccines which can only be stored initially at -80 on dry ice (the medical fridges they keep the flu vaccines in don't do this.

she also said that somethings got to give. so regular appointments with practice nurse (for smears etc) will probably be pushed back because of the need to utilise nurse for vaccines.

there are so so many logistical things which need to be thought through, it's going to be a long time i think until we actually see the vaccine rolled out. it still as far as I'm aware hasn't been licensed. they are according to the bBC fast tracking it but it could take some time.

and in the mean time i can't get a flu jab because i'm under 65 and not high risk. ive been told by my gp surgery ill more than likely have to wait until january for the flu jab.

QueenBlueberries · 11/11/2020 09:07

@ememem84, that's probably why the army is called to help! To support whoever is giving the vaccine with administrative support, physical support, creating the waiting rooms and supervising them, monitoring the temperature of the vaccine, etc. They will also help with the first priority which is people in care homes and staff working in care homes.

The flu jab has been given to the elderly as a matter of priority!

as for the 15 minutes, many people feel fait after an injection of any kind. It is stressful, and some people are extremely nervous about needles. I work in a secondary school and every year we have nurses to administer jabs, and absolutely guaranteed some of the kids will faint or feel light headed.

Aragog · 11/11/2020 09:09

[quote IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls]@WiseUpJanetWeiss only registered nurses can give injections. Including vaccines. [/quote]
A pharmacist gave me and Dd our flu vaccines; she does every year.

Aragog · 11/11/2020 09:11

Oh and I give myself an injection weekly at home. I teach; I'm not a nurse.

In the last I have given a child I teach an injection several times a week. It's the norm in many schools. We are not RN.

My GP has given my an injection before now too.

That statement of yours is simply not true.

the80sweregreat · 11/11/2020 09:11

The pharmacist did my son and dh's flu jab and did it last year too.
Many people can do these injections.

CaptainMyCaptain · 11/11/2020 09:16

My GP surgery has flu jab clinics on a Sunday. Initially I was given an appointment for late November but it was bumped up to October as they obviously had a gap appear. The timings were very precise (like 11.04 a.m.) but I arrived early and was straight through on a one way system. One nurse and someone at a desk checking details. It took a few seconds and I was out again through the back door. It was very efficient.

I'm sure a system like this could be organised in any largish venue especially with army help.

GoldenOmber · 11/11/2020 09:21

@BungleandGeorge

Ebola most recently, I think maybe the dengue vaccine?

I’m talking about the UK though as other countries have their own legislation. Since Ebola has a mortality of at least 25% and possibly 90% I don’t think it’s really comparable to covid anyway, your risk benefit ratio is somewhat different.

As for consent, are we saying millions of people being vaccinated as quickly as possible will have product licensing and it’s implications explained to them to obtain true informed consent?

Why should all the details of product licensing be explained to them? "And if you turn to page 34 of the explanatory leaflet, 'rights to patent'..." I've had drugs prescribed off-label use before, nobody sat me down and went through all the steps about regulators touring manufacturing plants.

What people need to know is that the MHRA has seen the data, has reviewed it, and is content to approve emergency use. Approving it for emergency use is not the same as just starting to inject people without regulators looking at it. It's not an alternative to the full licensing process, it's something that happens while that process is still going on.

No it's not just Ebola-level severity that has been included for vaccine emergency use before. Look, here is a WHO news release about the emergency authorisation procedure that uses a polio vaccine as an example: www.who.int/news/item/09-01-2020-emergency-use-listing-procedure-and-roadmap-health-emergencies

Of course, we COULD wait until the drug has been fully licensed according to a normal (years-long) timeframe before it's been injected into anyone who isn't a trial volunteer. We COULD wait five years just to be sure this isn't the first vaccine in history that makes people start growing an extra nose after year 4. And it might seem like that's only being cautious. But in reality, regulators and governments have to balance necessary caution alongside the harms of what happens if you don't start using a vaccine - which here, means a lot of people will be harmed and will die. So yes they're absolutely going to hurry up the bits they can, because it would be unethical not to, and it would be especially unethical to wait for years based on various members of the public's ideas about what constitutes being 'rushed' or not.

Northernsoulgirl45 · 11/11/2020 09:29

@ememem84 my ecv dh can't get a flu jab. There seems to be a supply problem with the under 65 vaccine.
Incidentally I normall get my jab from chemist.

PuzzledObserver · 11/11/2020 09:30

@SophieGiroux

I'm a healthcare professional and I'm concerned about how this has been rushed through. There is no long term safety data. It will most likely be given out whilst still unlicensed. The law has been changed so the manufacturer doesn't accept liability. Many of my colleagues feel the same way as we may have to administer it. It's not being anti-vaccine to question something that has been rushed out. It could be the first mRNA vaccine that is licensed with no long term safety data. Not something that sits comfortably with me. Also to compare it to holiday vaccines is wrong as they have been thoroughly tested long term.
Of course there is no long term safety data - not enough time has elapsed. You canna’ change the laws of physics.

It will not be given out while still unlicensed. It will receive an EMERGENCY licence due to the exceptional circumstances of a global pandemic. That will be for a limited time, and with restrictions (e.g. on the types of people to whom it will be administered)

The emergency licence will be for those people for whom, on the basis of as much evidence is available, the potential risk of adverse effects (none recorded so far in the trial, remember) is vastly lower than the risk of harm or death from Covid. For example, it may initially only be licensed for the over 50’s in the general population, and for younger adults only if they are front line health or care staff (as a guess.)

It would be the first mRNA vaccine licensed, full stop. There are no others, yet. Every established technology was new once, right? mRNA vaccines have huge potential to treat other types of disease, including cancer and Parkinson’s.

So it seems to me that a global pandemic, when millions are at risk of serious disablement or death, is exactly the right time to trial a technology which in other times we would take decades to do. How many lives would be saved if most cancers became treatable conditions?

If you are a prescriber, you are prescribing drugs every day to which some patients, somewhere, will have a serious adverse reaction. Maybe be permanently disabled, or die. It happens - I have been on drugs which were subsequently withdrawn, because the risks were found to be unacceptable. You know this - does it stop you prescribing? I imagine not, because otherwise you couldn’t do your job.

Of course, if a new as yet unreported side effect happens to one of your patients, you would report it. This is what leads to some drugs being withdrawn after they have been in use for a while - and when better alternatives have come along.

The Pfizer vaccine is not the end of the story, it is the beginning. It will save lives, and also save people from long-term, possibly permanent damage. Some may be damaged by it - so, yes, it’s a risk. But a much lower one than allowing the virus to continue to run free. I would have thought that a health professional would understand this.

TwentyViginti · 11/11/2020 09:40

[quote IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls]@WiseUpJanetWeiss only registered nurses can give injections. Including vaccines. [/quote]
Not true. I had my flu vac at Boots.

The ignorance of basic facts evident on this thread is astounding.

ememem84 · 11/11/2020 09:52

[quote QueenBlueberries]@ememem84, that's probably why the army is called to help! To support whoever is giving the vaccine with administrative support, physical support, creating the waiting rooms and supervising them, monitoring the temperature of the vaccine, etc. They will also help with the first priority which is people in care homes and staff working in care homes.

The flu jab has been given to the elderly as a matter of priority!

as for the 15 minutes, many people feel fait after an injection of any kind. It is stressful, and some people are extremely nervous about needles. I work in a secondary school and every year we have nurses to administer jabs, and absolutely guaranteed some of the kids will faint or feel light headed.[/quote]
re the 15 minutes - that makes sense! i hadn't thought of that!

and the flu jab - yes aware that has to be given to the over 65"s as priority - except our government here (channel islands) are pushing for everyone to get their jabs by the end of this month. as i said i'm not high risk or over 65, so will wait. ds has had his vaccination at nursery.

SaskiaRembrandt · 11/11/2020 13:26

Why do conspiracy theorists so obsessed with sheep? It's really odd, and may I say, a little unhealthy.

BurningRose · 11/11/2020 13:34

@SaskiaRembrandt why are sheeple obsessed with conspiracy theorists?

OP posts:
CaptainMyCaptain · 11/11/2020 13:41

What makes me laugh is that following the advice of scientists or government makes you a sheeple, following their advice is ok.

khaleesi71 · 11/11/2020 13:43

OP the military has a very effective, efficient and compassionate medical branch which cover all specialties (many GPS, paramedics, nurses etc all of which have had the same medical training seen in civvy life and many are working in NHS trusts) - I'm biased but as previous posters have said - they are brilliant at organising logistics. You've gotten stick for your conspiracy theories because they are utterly unfounded!

Butterer · 11/11/2020 13:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pointythings · 11/11/2020 13:58

Use the word 'sheeple' = I have nothing of substance to argue with.

RonaLisa · 11/11/2020 14:15

[quote DianaT1969]@RonaLisa, hmm OK then. You're ok catching it and spreading it to others too then? That's what happens when you catch a contagious virus. You spread it to others.
But you probably think it's a fake virus spread by Microsoft.[/quote]
@DianaT1969

If everyone else is wanting to be vaccinated, and can be vaccinated, then the only people spreading it among themselves are the young and healthy, and the old gimmers like me who would rather take their chances.

Please don't put words into my mouth about fake viruses and Microsoft. Neither of those things has ever crossed my mind. I'm not an anti-Vaxxer, either.

I suppose I'm just pretty moderate all round - vaccinations are fine, especially for people who would otherwise suffer from complications caused by routine illnesses. I just have a slight preference for natural immunity, where reasonably possible.

I am also very strongly opposed to the hysteria about Covid. Obviously it's a real virus (why am I even have to say this?) However, the ridiculous over-reaction to it is the issue.

If the NHS can't cope with it, that is because the NHS is no longer fit for purpose, not because Covid is so bloody special that it deserves to have entire livelihoods blown apart.

It's our entire heath service - which was fine when it was set up (when people weren't living so long, weren't routinely presenting with health problems related to obesity, etc, etc) - that we ought to be looking at, not Covid.