The effect of schools staying open on people's compliance

[bringbackCabanas]

I DO NOT want schools to close. I'm happy to send my kids in and will continue to do so.

But, the amount of times I hear, or read on here, "well if they sit at school together all day then they can do x y z outside of school" or "my child is mixing with x amount of people five days a week so what's the point of following the rules?"

Basically that if schools are still open then it's not really a "lockdown" and not everyone will take it seriously.

It’s the other group (maybe the more realistic group) are the ones who won’t comply with the rules whilst childcare and all schools and universities are open.

How about they give it a try first?

Why are the Irish, Germans, Swiss, French etc all trying to keep schools open?

@ThornAmongstRoses

At the moment many people's view is they are sacrificing for no real benefit.

No benefit of education the next generation?

I think people’s view is that regardless of ways people are being restricted, whilst childcare and education facilities remain open then it’s very unlikely to have any real impact on the infection rates.

So some people may think what’s the point of them making sacrifices when those sacrifices won’t make any difference to what will be the end result anyway.

I think people are really, really hoping that the current measures are going to have a huge impact on numbers, but many people think it’s not going to make any difference at all - especially in just four weeks.

Exactly.

I see the importance of education. I'd happily sacrifice for it (and will do anyway but not happily) if I thought it would have any actual effect.

I work in a school. I know how covid unsafe they are. Blended learning would at least be seen as making the sacrifice worthy because then it might, I repeat might, have an impact on the numbers. Keeping 30 kids, staff in tiny cramped rooms, sharing a small number of toilets etc will have little impact. We are far too high up on that exponential curve now.

It’s the other group (maybe the more realistic group) are the ones who won’t comply with the rules whilst childcare and all schools and universities are open.

How about they give it a try first?

We all know that even if this 4 week “lockdown” does reduce infection rates, as soon as the restrictions are lifted the infections rate will be right back where they are now.

That’s why people won’t comply, because they know these 4 weeks aren’t going to achieve anything in the long term.

I'd happily sacrifice for it (and will do anyway but not happily) if I thought it would have any actual effect.

The indications from other countries is that it will. Based on actual data.

I don’t understand why people who have no specific knowledge on this topic have unilaterally decided it won’t work. They don’t have the slightest clue and should be looking to emerging data to inform their decision.

I do see the point in a lockdown with schools open. But I also believe lockdown won’t be no where near enough effective with them open . Hundreds of thousands of kids out on public transport filling up trains and buses. Mixing in school then taking it home to their families.

I'm more likely to comply with the rules as school staying open is my number one personal priority.

But I also believe lockdown won’t be no where near enough effective with them open. Hundreds of thousands of kids out on public transport filling up trains and buses. Mixing in school then taking it home to their families.

100% yes.

I will follow the rules but do I think these 4 weeks are going to change anything? Not at all.

I’m hoping though that I will be back here in 4 weeks eating some humble pie

I also work in a school and yes, as others have said, the transmission rate is rising....and this is amongst young children. The myth that small children don't pass the virus on is rubbish, they do (and I caught it from a child just before the last lockdown).
Small children may not suffer so much and many do not show symptoms, but they certainly pass the virus on.

Schools SHOULD BE SHUT. Yes, it's dreadful for education, for the children, for families trying to work, for exams.... But this is still a pandemic and if it's got so bad that another lockdown is necessary, then schools need to shut to make it worthwhile.

Some are arguing we should sacrifice everything just to keep schools open; I would argue, why are we sacrificing businesses, the country and the whole of the economy to keep schools open? The children will catch up in the future, there are many other ways of learning including a proper online service.

In addition, yes, I do feel why should I be following the rules to the letter when I'm stuck in a school with no PPE, no social distancing (small children find it too difficult) and teachers crammed into a small room all day with kids......who are then going to go home and pass the viruses that they have picked up in school, on to their families.

So I can't even visit my own family, even outside, but I can sit through that every day? Bloody bonkers......

How are other countries managing to keep them open?

Germany? France? Switzerland? Sweden? Ireland?

They're all managing to keep schools open.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

@Sonnenscheins

How are other countries managing to keep them open?

Germany? France? Switzerland? Sweden? Ireland?

They're all managing to keep schools open.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

Or maybe adopt the same safety precautions that they have? Masks, social distancing, part time learning.

You aren't comparing like with like but Is suspect you know that.

I think the biggest problem is people are pissed off they have to go to work (aka the boring bit of life) yet cant meet up with friends (the fun part of life) if you chuck uc on top of that where life is a constant struggle I can certainly see people saying fuck it and breaking the rules.
What I think is madness is my primary aged child is going to be playing football tonight against another team. In his team alone theres 4 different primary schools that's just the players on his team.
Although I think schools should stay open. I dont see the point in them staying open operating the way they are.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

Or even just try?

There are no european precedents for shutting schools for more than a week this time (as far as I’m aware). How would it be justified?

Out school has quite a much mixed demographic but certainly some area of high deprivation where the attitude definitely is that if they are mixing in school then they can mix outside.

I do think often times it's the mixed messages that reduce people's compliance, such as the eat out schemes where again in this area I heard people see that as a signal it was all over and done with and life should return to normal.

I think the school thing is similar.

I also think it psychologically redistributes risk, the reality is that school children and school staff are at no greater risk than they would be if lockdown didn't occur, in fact if it has any impact then it would be less risk, however, it very much feels like, and I feel this way, that children and school staff are left out on the front line with all the risk! I think it's hard for school staff to feel safe when others in different jobs have been furloughed AGAIN.

I think it's complicated but I see both sides of the coin, personally I feel in Wales, we should have shit schools. We had two weeks and one they were already off, given how short our lockdown is I think it should have been as severe as possible to have the maximum affect. For the sake of one extra week, but the English 4 weeks would create far greater disruptions.

Would help if our governments weren't just trying to out do each other and united.

No I agree.
It’s difficult to get your head around the restrictions when the kids share the same classroom or even desk all day. But yet aren’t allowed to outside of school.

You aren't comparing like with like

The ONLY difference in Ireland is mask wearing in secondary (which certainly doesn’t look like it’s being enforced in the school beside me, but hey ho).

So do that.

No need to close.

@Sonnenscheins

How are other countries managing to keep them open?

Germany? France? Switzerland? Sweden? Ireland?

They're all managing to keep schools open.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

Yes-they have invested large amounts of money into schools!

Maybe our government should try that. As that is looking unlikely though, the chances of our schools closing is increasing.

I've stuck to the rules pretty strictly and cut contact with my support bubble when cases exploded at my workplaces. This was a good thing as they still had a half term when I subsequently tested positive.

But now I feel like the government does not give two shiny shits if school staff or kids catch it so why constantly put back your life when you have had it already and are almost certain to get it at work anyway

@TheKeatingFive

You aren't comparing like with like

The ONLY difference in Ireland is mask wearing in secondary (which certainly doesn’t look like it’s being enforced in the school beside me, but hey ho).

So do that.

No need to close.

From another post.

Mask wearing is clearly not the ONLY difference.

Mask wearing is clearly not the ONLY difference

There are NO differences from pre Covid in my sons primary school except for hand sanitising and more outdoor time (perfectly possible to replicate).

The extra money is primarily to recruit extra supply in case of teachers out sick. Which is useful overall, but wouldn’t have an impact on infection rates.

All these saying I'm going to ignore the restrictions because schools are open will be the same ones in a months time still blaming schools that infections are rising! And are probably the same people who are aghast at all returning to normality and just getting on with it . It seems we can't win 🤷‍♀️

100% agree with you OP.

Dh and I are teachers and have dc at secondary school. We comply with all the rules and don't let our dc break them either. But I have to admit, I don't really understand the 'shut everything else to keep schools open' thing, or the logic behind why kids can't socialise with the very friends they've been sitting right next to with no masks on all day.

There isn't some kind of Covid-proof fence around schools. Kids mix with each other at school with no masks or social distancing, then go home to their parents and siblings. Lockdown might reduce the chance of kids picking up the virus outside of school, but any who do pick it up will still pass it around to other kids within school, who will then take ot home to their families.

Doctor on BBC news just said that obviously, from a virologist standpoint, that it would be better to close schools. But that due to other reasons they were going to ‘give it a go’ at keeping them open.

I think a large swath of the public will be pretty angry about that. If the threat to the NHS is so great that we may not be able to get help for appendicitis/heart attacks/car crash so soon that they have to stop seeing their family the why wait? Why damage the economy for a strategy that won’t work fast enough? Why wear out people good will by doing something harmful that they already know will not be enough?

Why play this game of chicken by having an ineffective lockdown?

See, RTB, I would honestly disagree that explaining WHY to an child is easy, and I also disagree that it's down to laziness on a parent's part.

Obviously you can tell a kid "Because that's the rules," or "because I say so." But to me that's the lazy option. Generally I try to get my kids to think about why rules are in place so they understand why following them is important. That's not as easy in this situation.

For example, if it's safe for my child to wait at the bus stop with her group of friends, safe to sit next to the same friends on the bus, share classrooms with those friends, eat lunch together, and it's still safe for them to ride the bus home together, WHY does it then become unsafe once they emerge together from the bus? They mustn't go on a walk together after school, because that's unsafe. They mustn't stop together for a game of football on the way home. Instead they'll go home and sit in their rooms and talk to each other on screens.

The truth is that it's not logically any less safe for them to stay in each other's company after school. The truth is that I'll get a fine if they DON'T go gather at school, and also if they DO gather afterwards.

I follow the rules to the letter. I'm not making any excuses not to comply, because I will comply. I don't have to agree with the logic, though.

@Sonnenscheins

How are other countries managing to keep them open?

Germany? France? Switzerland? Sweden? Ireland?

They're all managing to keep schools open.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

These countries have spent money and planned for better mitigation in schools. Many have classes of 15 or less, better transport two and from schools investment in ventilation, use of protective equipment, blended learning. No other country bar Israel has tried to open schools in the way we have. That is why we are in a mess. Short sightedness has been the theme throughout. Not wanting to spend money, which leads to needing to spend 10x as much later down the line. The lack of foresight from the government is shocking.