The effect of schools staying open on people's compliance

[bringbackCabanas]

I DO NOT want schools to close. I'm happy to send my kids in and will continue to do so.

But, the amount of times I hear, or read on here, "well if they sit at school together all day then they can do x y z outside of school" or "my child is mixing with x amount of people five days a week so what's the point of following the rules?"

Basically that if schools are still open then it's not really a "lockdown" and not everyone will take it seriously.

Thanks @midgebabe for explaining R value, literally never heard of it before. You do know that it is just a number and not an ACTUAL MAGIC THING though right? What you're missing is a) if R is only slightly below 1 there's still going to be a lot of cases for a long time and b) a national R below 1 could still have individual communities and schools with R rates that are much, much higher and where you are exposing vulnerable parents and teachers to risk.

There is nowhere with the same current risk as secondary schools apart from, maybe, unis and pubs. There is no equal trade off by closing shops and leisure, those venues are largely safe anyway. But as there are so many people who just won't be convinced about this, I'll just say wait and see.

@Sonnenscheins

I’m among those who don’t see the point if I’m forced to allow my children to mix in school.

Don't you feel grateful that your child can go to school?

I'd feel grateful if proper home learning or blended learning was set up, so that there were reduced numbers in the classes and proper social distancing in place.

I would rather my child was 100% safe at home with me atm as I'm on the shielding list, so attending school in the current manner with what amounts to no preventative measures, educates and could potentially lead to an orphan who will forever know their schooling killed their parent.

This is a repeated scenario throughout the UK.

Are these the same people who say 'well I had a big lunch with a massive pudding, I may as well have a take-away for tea and eat crisps and chocolates all evening'?

You are right OP.

I don't want full closure despite putting my own and my family's health at risk. As too many of my primary Sen pupils lives really would be put at risk, more than the risk to their health.

But I've observed my own attitude and behaviour and that of my colleagues changing. Certainly there will be parents who argue, well they're all mixing at school anyway.

Due to restrictions locally we can't minimise contacts any further; they were already reduced to nothing, online shopping etc.

Which means no difference from a psychological POV. Bar no gyms or pubs.

Completely agree. I don’t have school age children, I don’t care if schools are open or not. But I’m not giving up my life for another month (which lets be honest is likely to be longer) if schools are open so lockdown isn’t even given chance to work.

Need to add we've followed all rules and not even been to wider shops and bars and pubs etc when we could.

The only extra mixing I've ever done was go to two people's houses for coffee / a bbq and take ds for his extremely well run safe swimming lesson.

I met a few mums in the park for the brief time we were allowed to in the NE and some mates on the beach.

Our only change is no more swimming. (Hoping nat trust stuff still open but unsure yet.)

@RedToothBrush

If all the schools in other countries in europe close, pressure will grow on johnson to close the schools. If we have a LOT of school closures due to positive tests in the SE next week, pressure will grown on Johnson to close schools.

Personally my money is on high schools switching to home learning by the end of November/ beginning of December. But we shall see.

I suspect Primary Schools are more likely to remain open throughout though.

Yes I think this will happen. Sooner in some areas.

As mentioned before

I am tier 2 yet all schools in my area have only had one year closed .. this includes secondary / teachers etc / office staff

So, the schools are not driving this in my area.

If I didn't have children and wasn't a teacher, id personally comply.

It's having children that changes your attitude. As you know how germ infested they are.

It will come back to bite everyone when schools close due to infections though. I think many areas haven't experienced that ongoing hell.

I don't think you should take every criticism or moan about the rules as an intention to break them. That's the biggest issues on MN. Someone has a moan about the shitness of the situation, followed by loads of respondents immediately shutting them down. Virtue signaling and extrapolating a moan to the poster being a law breaker, planning an illegal rave.

People can disagree and still comply.

Tier one and 2 secondary schools in our area closed completely and many others had yesr groups home. My child's primary school had classes sent home.

I am v rule driven and I shielded first time. But even I am thinking if they're playing together at school whats wrong with the playground after.

I thought outdoors was supposed to be v low transmission so a bit disappointed not to be able to meet another family for a walk.

Also noticed BBC has a news article online about manchester and liverpool calling to close schools. They had much higher rates and will know first hand about the effect of schools at the moment.

Also the teaching union....

I'd not be surprised if secondaries close at least.

I wish people had listened to teachers and schools last term and be allowed to open in a more safe manner (smaller groups, ventilation, part online whatever) so closure didnt seem likely.

@Smelliethenelephant

OK, so for all the people who trot out the same lazy arguments, day in day out, about closing everything else to allow schools to stay open, it will not work that way. Let me tell you about our secondary school: A couple of cases in year 12 - a few kids sent home to isolate. One is presumaly asymptomatic, stays at home but siblings in year 10 and year 8 still attend school. Guess what? Cases in year 10. A few kids in year 10 sent home, one is asymptomatic, sibling in year 9 attends school.... guess what? Do you see what I am getting at here? This is not fantasy this is exactly what has happened in our secondary school. In year 11 alone there have been at least 20 cases, could easily be many, many more by now as school has now stopped informing parents. Transmission is 100% occurring in the classroom and wearing masks in a corridor is just a distraction.

If you have a cluster of cases in your school they are not going to reduce by closing the gym and the hairdressers down the road. They will continue to spread via families and siblings until they run out of hosts. This won't be every school of course, but it will be many. A 2 to 3 week school closure with everything else closed would enable a reset that allows kids to continue full-time in school. Anything else is just nonsense.

But isn't the idea that in the scenario you describe, because contacts are reduced elsewhere, the likelihood of the couple of cases arriving in Y12 in the first place is reduced significantly. Nobody is saying there will be no cases at all in schools, but the likelihood of what you describe happening frequently is far less. Cases do not spontaneously occur in schools, they arrive from elsewhere. So schools should become safer for everyone if transmission elsewhere in the community is not happening. I'm personally sceptical of 4 weeks being long enough to see a meaningful effect of this, but if the measures reduce cases arriving in schools, then surely that is good and worthwhile for everyone, including teachers and pupils, as well as their families.

I agree that this will affect compliance. It shouldn’t though.
The logic of “if I/my children can be in school mixing with hundred of people each day then they can see their auntie/grandpa/friends” just doesn’t hold up. It may not affect the chances of your child/you contracting the virus very much... but the chances of auntie or grandpa contracting the virus goes up loads.
It’s precisely because your children are interacting with loads of other households that you shouldn’t be. As a teacher, I find it frustrating that I can’t mix with anyone (not even the colleague that I share an office space with all week) outside of work but it is what it is. It’s no different to the situation that supermarket workers and nurses and train drivers etc. found themselves in during the first lockdown. I personally think that schools (particularly secondary) should have closed for 2 weeks in October, with an extra week of home learning tacked onto half term, but I don’t agree that they should have to close any time additional lockdown measures are needed.

Yes OP this is exactly it and no doubt people will continue to do what they were doing before throughout this lockdown. Some of the school mums had secret meet ups even in the real lockdown so I am doubtful that anyone will abide by the rules this time.

I’m in the worst part of the country and school mums continued to travel all over the country during half term. Unfortunately this will continue with no stricter rules in place.

Some of the school mums had secret meet ups even in the real lockdown

You mean they flouted the rules during the last lockdown?

Well then clearly they won't care whatever the rules are!

Unless we send police with guns out

But isn't the idea that in the scenario you describe, because contacts are reduced elsewhere, the likelihood of the couple of cases arriving in Y12 in the first place is reduced significantly. Nobody is saying there will be no cases at all in schools, but the likelihood of what you describe happening frequently is far less. Cases do not spontaneously occur in schools, they arrive from elsewhere

Yes exactly.

My teen has been alone at home over half term, as he is not allowed to meet his friends inside (and the bad weather didn't really lend itself to meeting outside). He's looking forward to school today!

Parents need to understand that they need to comply with the rules (NO socialising outside of school) so that schools and hospitals CAN stay open. It's not that difficult to understand surely

It will effect compliance. Its a shame as we are asking teachers to do somethink high risk on the understanding that all the other risks are reduced.
Some people just seem very all or nothing. If you cant be 100% covid secure then dont bother at all seems to be the view. Its the same with environmental things.

With schools and universities open people will not comply for all the reasons given.

It cannot be a lockdown with them open. It's pointless.

With schools and universities open people will not comply for all the reasons given. It cannot be a lockdown with them open. It's pointless.

Yep.

It’s ridiculous that it’s even being called a lockdown - because it really isn’t one.

With schools and universities open people will not comply for all the reasons given.
It cannot be a lockdown with them open. It's pointless.

It really makes me sad that some people in the UK regard the sacrifices we make to keep schools open as pointless.

I have family in Germany and they are doing everything to minimise contacts outside of schools, as they understand the importance of keeping schools open. And their new 'lockdown' actually allows groups of 10 from two different households to meet inside).

I think we can do better in the UK.

It’s ridiculous that it’s even being called a lockdown - because it really isn’t one.

What do you want it to be called?

In Germany it is called a lockdown even though the restrictions are far less restrictive, and people seem to be happy to accept the rules and take some personal responsibility to limit the spread of the virus, SO THTs schools can stay open

Deliaskis “Cases do not spontaneously occur in schools, they arrive from elsewhere. So schools should become safer for everyone if transmission elsewhere in the community is not happening.“

School cases will lessen from what they would have been if there was no lockdown. But cases don’t occur spontaneously in the community either. People in close, indoor, contact largely spread the virus. Therefore, schools will continue to spread the virus within, and then spread out to households and communities.

@Sonnenscheins

Parents need to understand that they need to comply with the rules (NO socialising outside of school) so that schools and hospitals CAN stay open. It's not that difficult to understand surely

I agree but sadly I don't think that lots of people get it. We need to reduce all social contacts to the absolute minimum to get this under control. We are in a global pandemic. Going to work and school is essential but going to the pub, restaurant, gym, play dates, sleepovers etc are not essential. These things will come back but it will take longer than necessary if people do not comply.

What do you want it to be called?

I don’t care what it’s called.

People can call it a lockdown all they like - it doesn’t mean it is one.

Calling a cat, a duck, doesn’t mean it is one.